RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective

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RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:20:23 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief.

Hmmm, I doubt the above is relevant.

I personally do not care whether there's a god. As such, I haven't put a label on myself, but others might define this as agnostic. Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence.

To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to aviinterra)

Post #: 121

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:24:09 AM

atursvcMaam

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Joined: 5/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NotAnExit2

It is impossible to prove the existence of God, just as it is impossible to prove you aren't just a brain in a jar and your life is an artificial simulation.

It is also impossible to disprove the existence of God.

This statement actually proves the existence of God, and defines Him/him or Her/her

you may be able to prove that your mind exists, and can dismiss everything else as unprovable or a blank slate where the mind has created this "artificial simulation".
You are God, and everything else is a variable.
               What, You say? look at the questions that would be answered:
                Who created the earth?
                   Your mind did.
                 Why should I be moral?
                     You created the rules.
                  Why should science follow predictable rules?
                      it does what You expect it to.
   Do i believe in God?
                   i might have been slightly misleading, it might not be You, but me. because sometimes You go away, but i am always here.
       Careful, though, it is a great title but a heck of a lot of responsibility, because, after all, it's all Your fault, too.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to NotAnExit2)

Post #: 122

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:25:09 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Experience is what predictions are based on.

There is a classic experiment in operant conditioning where a cat was dropped into a Skinner box. Doing what cats do, it rubbed up against this, pawed at that, rolled around, and finally bumped the food lever. Upon the next visit, it repeated the same behaviors, and was rewarded for remembering its experiences with more food.

Now the religious cat continued to repeat those behaviors faithfully, and even added extra ceremonial ones (involving chanting, reading from old scraps of paper, burning incense as well as heretical cats, and so forth).

The scientific cat eliminated useless steps from the original experience until it had the only useful behavior...going straight to the food button and pushing it.

(And there was one special breed of cat who figured out how the food thingy worked, and made other cats give him money in return for 'producing' the food).

None of those processes told any of the cats a thing about whoever made the food though.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 123

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:25:21 AM

batshalom

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Joined: 9/17/2007
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Not long ago, I heard a scientist explain faith vs. science in a simplictic elegant fashion.

No one is asserting that science can explain everything. Faith needs no proof - it's what faith is.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 124

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:25:34 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

Atheists and agnostics forget that their belief in non-belief is a belief.

Hmmm, I doubt the above is relevant.

I personally do not care whether there's a god. As such, I haven't put a label on myself, but others might define this as agnostic. Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence.

To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic.

For the purpose of keeping terms clear within this thread, I would like to observe that your philosophy would most likely be described as humanist. Agnosticism is not incompatible with humanism, but neither is it necessary for humanism.

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Post #: 125

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:26:35 AM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
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I don't need faith to open doors or perform science.

try it with Your eyes closed.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 126

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:28:59 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use.

You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy.

Has Ellen been feeding the five thousand again? I keep telling her, "look, I know you're holy, but no one likes a show off". She'll get herself into trouble one of these days. Should see her walk on water, Rule, not so much as a toe wet and she makes Ted Neeley look like a poor man's Jesus.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 127

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:31:17 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Quite frankly, were god to present himself in front of me it wouldn't change my life one iota - ditto in the event someone proved his non-existence.

So if god presented herself to you as some tall, well proportioned, 29 year old, blue eyed, s-type with long dark hair, her own pub, with the ability to weld, hang wallpaper, cooks like your mum and gives amazing head - that wouldn't change your life at all?

quote:

To equate this as being akin to a belief in religion doesn't make sense. I have an opinion; those who believe in god have all sorts of rules, procedures and moral obligations, which renders the belief in god far removed from a "really don't give a fuckist" or an agnostic.

As a person of faith, I tend to get pissed off just as much as an agnostic or atheist may by being told that they have a 'belief' and tarnished with the same brush as many fundemental religions. Having faith doesn't mean I am any less me or change in anyway and I am not one for following rules and procedures 'just coz'.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 128

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:32:06 AM

NotAnExit2

Posts: 4
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotAnExit2

It is impossible to prove the existence of God, just as it is impossible to prove you aren't just a brain in a jar and your life is an artificial simulation.

It is also impossible to disprove the existence of God.

This statement actually proves the existence of God, and defines Him/him or Her/her

you may be able to prove that your mind exists, and can dismiss everything else as unprovable or a blank slate where the mind has created this "artificial simulation".
You are God, and everything else is a variable.
              What, You say? look at the questions that would be answered:
               Who created the earth?
                  Your mind did.
                Why should I be moral?
                    You created the rules.
                 Why should science follow predictable rules?
                     it does what You expect it to.
Do i believe in God?
                  i might have been slightly misleading, it might not be You, but me. because sometimes You go away, but i am always here.
      Careful, though, it is a great title but a heck of a lot of responsibility, because, after all, it's all Your fault, too.

Very Nietzsche of you :) I suppose the next question is how do you define God?

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 129

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:33:57 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

I don't need faith to open doors or perform science.

try it with Your eyes closed.

The point is, you are utterly unable to provide any verifiable examples of blind religious faith doing either of those things, so why demand such a standard from others when you can't deliver the goods yourself?
Pray into existence real world, real time, replicable flight, and we'll talk (after you decide what to do with the JREF million of course).

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 130

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:34:19 AM

atursvcMaam

Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline

By the way, whoever is responsible for Your existence did a lovely job. no harm intended, but i could not let it go without comment. :-)

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to NotAnExit2)

Post #: 131

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:35:28 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
None of those processes told any of the cats a thing about whoever made the food though.

And that is of course quite correct. Science cannot prove or disprove the supernatural. However, entirely IMO, eventually the absence of evidence does start becomeing evidence of absence. I can't establish it and there will always be gaps for god to hide in but for me at least I'm convinced.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 132

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:37:40 AM

bornsynner

Posts: 44
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline

all this bickering over whether one does or doesnt believe in the existence of a higher power?.. in the end, i say again, it doesnt matter if any of us 'believe'.. those that do have their reasons, those that dont have theirs... very few ppl will change their opinions in a later phase of life.. i love debate but most of this thread has had a circular thinking that would leave most ppl's head spinning..

as for how humanity was created, i can honestly say i dont know and to me, the fact that we're here is more important that how we got here.. i dont spend my days worrying about things i cant change and that just happens to be one of them

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 133

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:39:30 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
Status: offline

quote:

However, entirely IMO, eventually the absence of evidence does start becomeing evidence of absence.

As a matter of logic, the two positions are mutually exclusive and thus can never intersect.

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Post #: 134

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:42:28 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I have experienced "God" or whatever word one might use.

You became the Divine. I recall your experience and recognized it then as genuine. You are holy.

Has Ellen been feeding the five thousand again? I keep telling her, "look, I know you're holy, but no one likes a show off". She'll get herself into trouble one of these days. Should see her walk on water, Rule, not so much as a toe wet and she makes Ted Neeley look like a poor man's Jesus.

Hmmmm. Whilst I refuted any notion that I might claim holiness, despite Rule's commendation, its becoming ever clearer that there might be uses for omnipotence. I wonder........ if I glare harshly towards Manchester........

Now, you want nice Ellen or vengeful Ellen NG?

Mind you, wrong sort of question to ask here perhaps.....

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 135

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:44:42 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Rule:
Hey, you have the floor. Make your case. This medium of words on a screen stands ready.

Not going to do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
Or can you not make your case even in your own terms?

I am satisfied that I have.

What myth in particular would you like to see the fact of established?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 136

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:49:25 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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A solipsist...

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

Post #: 137

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:49:33 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So if god presented herself to you as some tall, well proportioned, 29 year old, blue eyed, s-type with long dark hair, her own pub, with the ability to weld, hang wallpaper, cooks like your mum and gives amazing head - that wouldn't change your life at all?

Assuming her passport and documents are in order, we'll get on fine......"god, beg.......yes, you god, feeding the five thousand is of no consequence 'round these parts, it's going to be a tight ship for you me lassie."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

As a person of faith, I tend to get pissed off just as much as an agnostic or atheist may by being told that they have a 'belief' and tarnished with the same brush as many fundemental religions. Having faith doesn't mean I am any less me or change in anyway and I am not one for following rules and procedures 'just coz'.

the.dark.

Presumably, though, you subscribe to certain morals dictated by a belief in god?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 138

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:51:01 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Shameless hijack:

I oscillate between atheism and agnoticism - but an ass like yours tempts me into believing that maybe, there is a god

.

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(in reply to NotAnExit2)

Post #: 139

RE: Faith to the faithless, a perspective - 2/5/2008 9:51:31 AM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bornsynner

all this bickering over whether one does or doesnt believe in the existence of a higher power?.. in the end, i say again, it doesnt matter if any of us 'believe'.. those that do have their reasons, those that dont have theirs... very few ppl will change their opinions in a later phase of life.. i love debate but most of this thread has had a circular thinking that would leave most ppl's head spinning..

lol my head spins whenever anyone even mentions religion in any form but then i'm stuck in a series of dichotomies anyway. i'm a pagan who still practices a lot of christian ritual because like it or not christianity is an exceptionally pagan religion. that bothers a lot of people on both sides, the christians and the pagans. i'm training to be a social scientist at a school that favors structuralism--religion, regardles of what people will tell you, from a social (not a pysch) perspective is all made up anyway. it's an institution just like economics and education. at the same time i fully embrace my belief. do i think it's rational? no. do i have answers about how god/dess created the world? no. do i really want to know? no. would it really change anything if i had all the answers in the world about the functioning of god/dess? no. Diety, by definition in most religious systems, is larger than ourselves anyway so it doesn't really matter if i fully understand as long as i still have faith that They understand Themselves.

in the end it all doesn't matter, it's what you do with your time while you're here that matters.

_____________________________

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” churchill

the first rule of fluff club is that you don't talk about fluff club!

(in reply to bornsynner)

Post #: 140

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