RE: Obama and Clinton making history (Full Version)

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Shawn1066 -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 11:34:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...no it can't, because creationism has to ignore stuff like carbon dating and fossils to make sense.



No it doesn't.  I can perfectly believe that a divine power set all of that in motion.  I can have my cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Also, getting students to think abstractly and come to their own conclusions is a very important part of education.  You can balance the concrete aspects of science with other forms of thought.

DV's Fox



DomKen -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 11:57:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...no it can't, because creationism has to ignore stuff like carbon dating and fossils to make sense.



No it doesn't.  I can perfectly believe that a divine power set all of that in motion.  I can have my cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Also, getting students to think abstractly and come to their own conclusions is a very important part of education.  You can balance the concrete aspects of science with other forms of thought.

DV's Fox

You're talking about what is usually called theistic evolution. IOW god set life in motion and set up the rules of nature etc., including variation and selection, so as to get the present state of affairs. That is no big deal since it makes no scientific claims and no one wants it taught that way in public schools. This is also the utterly uncontroversial position of the RCC and virtually all non fundamentalist protestant sects. It still can't be mentioned in school as it would violate serperation but I don't care if you believe it. I know a lot of scientists who hold that belief.

Huckabee talked about alternative theories, ie. "creation science" or the post Edwards "intelligent design", not about something like tacking a deity onto evolution education. Note specifically his staement that he doesn't believe in evolution. The path he advocates is psuedoscience of the worst sort and is very bad for this country. Go and find the estimates for money and jobs lost/not created in Kansas due to their state Board of Ed going creationist twice in the last few years. That alone should convince pro growth republicans to not vote for a creationist.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 12:07:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're talking about what is usually called theistic evolution. IOW god set life in motion and set up the rules of nature etc., including variation and selection, so as to get the present state of affairs. That is no big deal since it makes no scientific claims and no one wants it taught that way in public schools. This is also the utterly uncontroversial position of the RCC and virtually all non fundamentalist protestant sects. It still can't be mentioned in school as it would violate serperation but I don't care if you believe it. I know a lot of scientists who hold that belief.

Huckabee talked about alternative theories, ie. "creation science" or the post Edwards "intelligent design", not about something like tacking a deity onto evolution education. Note specifically his staement that he doesn't believe in evolution. The path he advocates is psuedoscience of the worst sort and is very bad for this country. Go and find the estimates for money and jobs lost/not created in Kansas due to their state Board of Ed going creationist twice in the last few years. That alone should convince pro growth republicans to not vote for a creationist.


My last bit on this.  I don't want to hijack the topic.

Academically, students shouldn't be led along and told how to think in my opinion.  They should be offered the opportunity to think.  The best way, and most fair way to do this in my opinion is to set the ideas, theories, and evidence in front of them and let them come to thier own conclusions on certain things that are, by no means, set in stone.

Huckabee wanting creationism to be taught in public schools is not a violation of the seperation of church in state.  Creationism, in a classroom, likely wouldn't be a reading of Genesis followed by class prayer.  I can see it in my head, and I don't see the controversy.

I don't see the controversy in the fact he doesn't believe in evolution.  It has nothing, at all, to do with how qualified he is as president.

But yes, we'll agree to disagree,
DV's Fox





CuriousLord -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 12:19:24 PM)

The problem is that creationism isn't science; therefore, it has no place in a science class.  Biology, Chemistry, Physics.. these are all sciences; where would creationism be taught?

Also, creationism isn't "thinking".  It's "God did it".  Do you know what my physics professor would give if he asked why electrons have quantized orbitals and I said, "God did it"?  Do you know how "God did it" will help me build a computer, solve an astrophysics problem, or add one and one together?

Creationism has been aptly labelled "intellectual surrender" as it's not thinking but pretty much as far away as a human can get without actually being physically brain damaged and/or heavily drugged.



DomKen -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 12:25:06 PM)

Academically students have to be taught the best facts known. We teach 2 + 2 = 4 not 2 + 2 = 5. We teach corect spelling and grammar. In chemistry we teach known reactions and the theory explaining them. In physics class we teach the basic concepts of physics and the underlying theory. In biology class it is likewise incumbent that we teach the facts and the underlying theory which in this case is the Theory of Evolution as it is the unifyling underlying theory of all of successful modern biology.

What would a creationism lesson plan be? Would you teach the lies promulgated by AiG or the Discovery Institute? How would teaching known falsehoods to children be beneficial? And before you ask there is no claimed evidence for any sort of creationism that isn't either fraudulent or badly misinterpreted. Look all you want. Go ask your pastor. Go to any of the creationist websites. Bring it back here and post it and I'll go over to talkorigins.org and debunk it thoroughly and completely.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 12:29:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Creationism has been aptly labelled "intellectual surrender" as it's not thinking but pretty much as far away as a human can get without actually being physically brain damaged and/or heavily drugged.


The other side of the site appears to be dead.  I was going to discuss this in private because I said I was done posting after my last one.  I'm not crossing my fingers, I really mean this is my last one.

Abstract thought is almost always considered to be academically good.  Creationism has a wonderful place in any Philosophy-type class.  Or do you not consider Philosophy, something that rarely deals in the concrete, to be "intellectual surrender" as well?  People should leave no stone unturned when searching for truth.  It's foolish, in my opinion, to ignore all the possibilities.

That being said, I personally believe in evolution and I don't discredit it.  I simply see other possibilities and I'm not so egotistical to think that my opinion is superior to somebody else's.

The fact is there are countless things that can't be accurately explained by current scientific methods.  Nobody knows, for sure, how things originated or how they progressed.  If we ignore all sides of the discussion, we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage.  We shouldn't tell children how to think...rather we should frame the argument for them to form their own decisions.

As I said--and I really mean it this time--I'm don't want to hijack this topic.  If anybody wants to discuss this further.  Feel free to message me on the other side when it's up.  I won't bite.

DV's Fox



CuriousLord -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 12:40:16 PM)

It's foolish to discount something that there's evidence for, Shawn.

Creationism has no evidence; it simply looks at something and says "God did it".  In the same sense, you could say, "A cow did it".

So, if I were to try to explain to school children why the moon orbitted the Earth.. would it be valid to teach that it might be that there's a golden cow in the center of both the moon and the Earth, and that the two are joined by an ultra-thin unbreakable cord?

It's complete bull (no pun intended), but it is a possibility.  In the same respect, creationism is.

But why teach it?  Why teach something that we have no reason to believe in?  Especially, why teach something we have no reason to believe in when we could instead be teaching practical, helpful things that we do have reason to believe in?  Why teach it when there are other things which open up the mind far more?  Why teach it when other things are brilliant, especially by contrast?



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 1:50:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We teach corect spelling and grammar.


Not quite, DomKen  [:D]



mnottertail -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 1:52:20 PM)

properly speaking; we do.

We also spout homilies.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

No child left behind!!!!



philosophy -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 1:53:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

Creationism has a wonderful place in any Philosophy-type class. 


...on this point we'd agree. However, the point under discussion was teaching creationism in a biology class. You appear to be trying to move the goalposts.



kittinSol -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 1:56:29 PM)

Creationism is a tool used by a right-wing movement with a political agenda. A lot of the supporters of a 'Young Earth' and other insanity are cynically pushing the issue in order to establish a foothold in universities and schools. We all know that education is power. Imagine an entire generation of people who believe in creationism and how mallable they would be.

All in all... terrifying shit.



DomKen -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 1:59:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

We teach corect spelling and grammar.


Not quite, DomKen  [:D]

I said it was taught not that I learned it. I've gotten really lazy since all my "serious" writing is on a wp with a good spellcheck.



liketophoto -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:00:48 PM)

RE: Obama and Clinton making history



philosophy -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:00:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Creationism is a tool used by a right-wing movement with a political agenda. A lot of the supporters of a 'Young Earth' and other insanity are cynically pushing the issue in order to establish a foothold in universities and schools. We all know that education is power. Imagine an entire generation of people who believe in creationism and how mallable they would be.

All in all... terrifying shit.


.....well, at least it's not like Islamic schools that frown on all opposing theories and see any opposition as, basically, evil and wrong....er...........

Sheesh, with all that's happening in the world (from Islam to sectarian schools in Northern Ireland) you'd think that people would have figured out by now that religion has absolutely no place in schools.



philosophy -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:02:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liketophoto

RE: Obama and Clinton making history


...ok, i'm being more than usually dense here, i don't see what you mean...........



liketophoto -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:09:02 PM)

get back on track, enough of this Republican shit.



philosophy -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: liketophoto

get back on track, enough of this Republican shit.



....ah, but that's the beauty of life here in the off-topic fora......we start on one thing, end up somewhere else.....it's like an open ended roller coaster.........mad, exciting and no guarantee of a soft landing......



mnottertail -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:21:43 PM)

Let them put that in their creationism class, if they have need of material.

Ron



liketophoto -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:42:23 PM)

I see....



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama and Clinton making history (2/6/2008 2:58:54 PM)

Surely voters should be looking at which policies candidates have, and can they deliver. Not looking at what colour or gender they are. I think another Clinton in office will be more of the same, although Obama would be a fresh start for the Democrats. 



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