RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (Full Version)

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Lordandmaster -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 12:03:58 PM)

Very interesting. It's not in the OED (at least not mine). A biologist or ecologist (I'm neither) could tell us whether this is common usage in their fields, in which case I'd gladly accept it.

Still, my point was that "dominant" is not listed in a dictionary as "a dominant person"; it's just our usage, which isn't any more standard or non-standard than saying "a dominate" (though, again, that does annoy me). I guess the most compelling objection would be historical. The suffix -(a)nt is from the Latin present active participle (-ns), while the suffix -(a)te is from the Latin perfect passive participle (-tus, -ta, -tum), and a dominant person would have to be dominant actively, not dominated passively.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

It's in the Oxford French-English dictionary : a "dominant" is a dominant species (It think it's the most common species of trees in a forest, or most common fish in a river for example).
In biology it's the dominant gene, as opposed recessive. It's probably not very common though : both meanings (of the noun "dominant")are in the English-French Oxford, but neither in the English-Spanish or the English-German.

Edit : I wonder if the guys writing the Oxford French English didn't make it up : It's neither in the Encyclopedia Britannica nor in the english dictionaries I just checked.




Lordandmaster -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 12:08:46 PM)

Yeah, people do that all the time. Most Americans have no idea that "data" and "media" are plural. And they screw up "phenomenon" and "phenomena" all the time.

This reminds me of the thread where we went over the plurals of penis, clitoris, octopus, and rhinoceros.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

Funny that you write "fora", which is the plural of "forum", as a singular.





frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 12:21:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Still, my point was that "dominant" is not listed in a dictionary as "a dominant person"; it's just our usage...

True, but the dictionary doesn't reflect all the different dialects used in geographic areas or by some particular groups (that's what specialized dictionaries are for). The language is what is spoken, not what is in a dictionary (although dics are essentials to me). It's normal that the BDSM community has some specific expressions. After all scientists also have theirs.

For example I can't find "ren speake" in any dictionary[;)], although I understand this borrowing from chinese. Btw, do you expect all people reading your profile to understand this expression ?




Lordandmaster -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 12:35:28 PM)

Well, yes, for the most part I agree with you, and we've had several threads about BDSM terminology and the proper and improper use of dictionaries. I would agree that "dominant" is more commonly accepted in the BDSM world than "dominate," but that doesn't mean it's better or more right (or that it's worth ridiculing people who say "dominate"). In fact, the same logic applies as in your example of "ren speake": since this is all vernacular anyway, as long as people understand "dominate," it's hard to argue that it's wrong. It's not like mixing up "discrete" and "discreet"--that's just incorrect.

If people don't know what ren speake is, hallelujah. (Ren speake is that nonsense that belongs at the Renaissance Faire.) If you want to talk about pet peeves, now there's a pet peeve. Milord. Midear. WTF? Midear is a part of the anatomy, not a form of address.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

True, but the dictionary doesn't reflect all the different dialects used in geographic areas or by some particular groups (that's what specialized dictionaries are for). The language is what is spoken, not what is in a dictionary (although dics are essentials to me). It's normal that the BDSM community has some specific expressions. After all scientists also have theirs.

For example I can't find "ren speake" in any dictionary[;)], although I understand this borrowing from chinese. Btw, do you expect all people reading your profile to understand this expression ?




frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 1:09:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
If people don't know what ren speake is, hallelujah. (Ren speake is that nonsense that belongs at the Renaissance Faire.)

OMG !! [sm=lol.gif]See what your non standard english did : I couldn't find it in the dictionary, so I thought you borrowed "ren" (man) as in "ren min" (people) from mandarin, to mean "lingua vulgata" ("vulgus" is the noun[;)])... Actually I started to learn english with a game that was in renspeak (Ultima5). Maybe that's why I'm still struggling almost 20 years later.[:D]

If you're really curious, my english-french dictionary and my english-russian don't agree about the meaning of "dominant" as a noun in biology : dominant gene in the former ("biology gène m dominant;"), dominant phenotype in the later("а) доминантный признак ( в отличие от рецессивного )"). It's not the same thing.




brightspot -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 2:18:13 PM)

quote:

It's surprising how someone with such small brains can say such big words I'm impressed.
We as a whole are not trying to insult anyone.


Sounds pretty insulting to me. I assume this message is for me although it is said to be in reply to frenchpet[8|].
Maybe you should "Teach" the rules of Proper Etiquette.


*Brightspot





Tempestspet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 2:19:23 PM)

frenchpet,

The only reason I had used the scening on the threads as an example... is because you can go to some chat rooms and find it.... and being online... I lumped it together.

That was all...smiles... I may just have been a bad example.

Take care,
Tempest's pet
jennifer




Lordandmaster -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 2:34:10 PM)

So THAT'S what you meant by a borrowing from Chinese.

Lingua vulgata in Chinese is suyu, "vulgar language."

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

OMG !! [sm=lol.gif]See what your non standard english did : I couldn't find it in the dictionary, so I thought you borrowed "ren" (man) as in "ren min" (people) from mandarin, to mean "lingua vulgata" ("vulgus" is the noun[;)])...





brightspot -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 2:39:40 PM)

quote:

It's got nothing to do about being a snaut (sp?) it's got to do with if the people who are not educated and have a disability and are insulted by this forum then they will tell us. Since you're being their representative without being asked, butt out.


I don't believe I made any reference to anyone being a snot and I did not personally attack anyone, as was your choice.

As for Hi-jacking, I don't think I have tried to do that, I had a gut reaction and responded with MO. I have only since responded to the nastiness tossed my way because of my opinions.

"Butt out" more than happy to, but not because you have ordered me to. I have absolutely No desire to participate in this thread. Would like to add though that the last time I heard we still have the freedom in the U.S. to speak and express our opinions. Everyone has that right, even if they can't spell.


*Brightspot




Guest -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 2:52:59 PM)

Lets keep the personal insults and other flames out of the discussion.
Ideas and personal thoughts are welcome but personal attacks and name calling are not.If people must, keep it in private.




frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 3:14:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tempestspet
The only reason I had used the scening on the threads as an example...

I just didn't understand the word "scening"... never mind, I googled it [;)]... thanks for this new, very useful, word [:D].

quote:

Lingua vulgata in Chinese is suyu, "vulgar language."

Thanks, this must be the most educational forum I've ever participated to ! It's better than the Discovery Channel ! [sm=lol.gif]

Another mistake : keeping the final "e" of the infinitive to form the present participle. E. g. : "loveing". I've seen this mistake several times (And googling "believeing" returns 97000 results, 167000 for "loveing"). It doesn't really hinder comprehension, it's just strange.




MsIncognito -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/12/2005 6:04:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: softandshy
In this case, it's just a question of kinks. [;)]


So bastardizing the English language for a kink is ok but not if you just didn't have the time to proof read (which I rarely do so I know I make some errors here and there if I'm rushed) or if one didn't have the benefit of an adequate education or if one has a learning disability or one makes a typo or any of the other myriad of reasons one might make a mistake. What an interesting perspective.




frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 5:02:53 AM)

I'm not sure someone mentioned the confusion between "than" and "then". It's very common.




pinkpleasures -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 6:54:29 AM)

quote:

I did, but this kind of things makes me a bit nervous, but if you insist... For example dominate and dominant. I just don't understand how could one make a confusion between a verb and an adjective (or noun). It's a matter of logic, it's just as bad as not being able to finish a simple sentence such as "fool me once, shame on you...". It has nothing to do with a lack of eloquence, it's plain basic logic.
Even worse : recently I read a sentence where there was a confusion between "no" and "know". I had to read it 5 times before I was sure of what the person who wrote that meant. How can one write "know" instead of "no" ?? I guess anyone could do that once, but it's impossible to miss that if you read it again.

OK, another one, very common : why in hell would someone write "cum" instead of "come" ? "cum" means either sperm, or is the latin for "with", still used in most european language in several set phrases (e.g. "cum laude", used in english). Why would someone say "sperm" when he actually means to invite someone to come ? Just for the fun of being gross ? Then just say "fuck on" instead of "come on", that'll sound really nice.

As you see Ojedieu, if you're a spelling nazi I must be the Himmler of grammar

frenchpet


i am guilty of "no" instead of "know" and of "cum" instead of "come"; one seems to have to do with my keyboard sticking; the other is meant to be a bit light-hearted.

i shall endeavor to do better in the future.

pinkpleasures




Lordandmaster -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 7:30:56 AM)

Oh, I meant to respond to this one, too. "Cum" and "come" are the same word. In fact, "cum" is attested as an obsolete way of spelling of "come." Nowadays it's been revived as a noun, meaning "semen," and as a verb, meaning "to achieve orgasm."

I wonder, by the way, whether the sense of "cum" as semen derives from an obscure use of "come" as a noun, meaning "The radicle of barley or other grain which in malting is allowed to develop to a certain point, and is then dried up by the process of roasting, and afterwards separated from the malt" (OED). I mean, just look at one of the old examples: "You shall rub it [the Malt] exceeding well between your hands, to get the Come or sprouting clean away" (1668).

quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

OK, another one, very common : why in hell would someone write "cum" instead of "come" ? "cum" means either sperm, or is the latin for "with", still used in most european language in several set phrases (e.g. "cum laude", used in english). Why would someone say "sperm" when he actually means to invite someone to come ? Just for the fun of being gross ? Then just say "fuck on" instead of "come on", that'll sound really nice.





frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 7:38:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
i am guilty of "no" instead of "know" and of "cum" instead of "come"; one seems to have to do with my keyboard sticking; the other is meant to be a bit light-hearted.

i shall endeavor to do better in the future.
pinkpleasures


Obviously your english is way better than mine. I understand how my comments were perceived...
My point is mostly that one should put efforts when writing if one wants to be read. There's no way I would read a page written in AOL speech : more and more teenagers on this side of the pond are so used to AOL speech that they use it in their homework and tests, at school ! Is that acceptable ?
I try and make efforts to be understood, I consider that if someone write in one's own native language, it should be at least as good as my english.
If I write in spanish or another language in which my grammar is poor, I'll expect tolerance because I always apologize for my poor level in the language. When someone writes in one's own language and makes more mistake than I do in spanish, I feel insulted as a reader.

It has nothing to do with unintentional mistakes here and there such as writing "no" instead of "know", which I sometimes do myself (but what I mentionned was writing "know" instead of "no", why would one make a word more complex than it is ?).
It's also about using slang with complete unknown people. For example your profile, as far as my knowledge of the english language goes, is in perfect english, and you wrote "come", not "cum". I could be wrong but I think we agree on the subject, although I express it differently, languages being my passion. OK, one of my passions, along with sex and good food.


Edit : thank you LAM for this piece of information... I'm always impressed by your avatar : This elephant has such a big... trunk !




frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 7:49:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I wonder, by the way, whether the sense of "cum" as semen derives from an obscure use of "come" as a noun, meaning "The radicle of barley or other grain which in malting is allowed to develop to a certain point, and is then dried up by the process of roasting, and afterwards separated from the malt" (OED). I mean, just look at one of the old examples: "You shall rub it [the Malt] exceeding well between your hands, to get the Come or sprouting clean away" (1668).

from etymonline :

"cum : (v. and n.) seems to be a modern (c.1986?) variant of the sexual sense of come that originated in pornographic writing, perhaps first in the noun sense. This "experience sexual orgasm" slang meaning of come (perhaps originally come off) is attested from 1650; as a noun meaning "semen or other product of orgasm" it is on record from the 1920s. "




pinkpleasures -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 11:10:15 AM)

quote:

If I write in spanish or another language in which my grammar is poor, I'll expect tolerance because I always apologize for my poor level in the language. When someone writes in one's own language and makes more mistake than I do in spanish, I feel insulted as a reader.

frenchpet


i was surprised by Lam's explanation of "cum" and "come", LOL. i cannot claim any education helped me. However, frendchpet, i feel you should not take poorly-written posts as insulting to you personally. People may have used an acorymn you don't know, etc., but scarcely with the intention of insulting.

pinkpleasures




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 2:39:29 PM)

quote:

So bastardizing the English language for a kink is ok but not if you just didn't have the time to proof read (which I rarely do so I know I make some errors here and there if I'm rushed) or if one didn't have the benefit of an adequate education or if one has a learning disability or one makes a typo or any of the other myriad of reasons one might make a mistake. What an interesting perspective.
Good one! It is an interesting perspective. In my opinion, this is one of the many ways one person proves he is better than/superior to others, because he accentuates the differences/shortcomings of others while hiding/understating his personal flaws. The only way this discussion would be fun is if everyone came on and said "I am insecure about A, B, and C, but I excell at D, E, and F... Vive la difference.
Yes, I agree with Brightspot in case anyone is wondering. M




frenchpet -> RE: A new take on the Grammar/Spelling Nazi thing (9/13/2005 3:47:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

However, frenchpet, i feel you should not take poorly-written posts as insulting to you personally. People may have used an acorymn you don't know, etc., but scarcely with the intention of insulting.
pinkpleasures



I know I take the whole thing too seriously, but I still do. What I mean by insult is that I feel that a message containing too many mistake is a sign of disrespect to the reader. At one extreme you have the résumé that shouldn't contain a single mistake : if one wants to spend years working with some people, it's unacceptable that one doesn't spell check one's résumé before sending it to these people. At the other you have messages written to buddies that won't pay any attention to a bunch of mistakes. In between, there's this forum, where we write mostly to people we don't know at all or very little.

To give an example, on a very different forum, I received two private messages asking me to give further explanations about things I had mentionned on the forum. I answered to the first, but not to the second. Not because the first person who asked was blue and the other green, but because the first politely asked in standard french, and the second asked in AOL speech.
My opinion is that people not making the effort to communicate correctly are just making things more difficult for themselves, adding some kind of social barrier on their path.

I'm absolutely not saying I'm superior to others here. I had to check my dictionary 3 times to write these few lines ("disrespect", "unacceptable", "barrier"), and I feel there's still (at least) a mistakes.




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