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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:38:29 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		It's alright.  Aswad was kind to speak on my behalf, though I'm fine without an excuse.  You can argue against me and I'll deal with those arguments.  Just respond to me and what I'm saying instead of rapidly changing the subject after being defeated at the previous.  Your points were rather aggressive in assumption and easily refuted for it.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:41:38 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

No, you're just misreading me. 


No one is misreading you.  We're just misliking you.  *hint*  It may have more to do with the tone and content of your posts than it does with how "confused" and "inferior" we are.

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(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:43:13 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ah, so disliking someone is grounds for misrepresenting them.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:49:32 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

content of your posts than it does with how "confused" and "inferior" we are.


Now, you see.. when you use quotes like that, it implies that I used that word.  As a matter of fact, this is the first post in the entire thread that I've used "inferior", and it's only in reference to your use of it.

How do I know?  I just used the Find option on every page of it.  (Yes, it was a pain in the ass.)

You used it in posts 204 (twice), 215, 223 and in the post above.  To be fair, meatcleaver also mentioned it in post 24.  No one else has.

Do you see what I mean by misrepresenting?



Edit:  Made it a bit easier to read.  Trying to avoid confusing, after all.  ;)

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/15/2008 12:58:21 PM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:51:48 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		Bob!!

Holy boomerang, Batman, Bob's back!

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:58:07 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Ah, so disliking someone is grounds for misrepresenting them.


Is that why you consistently twist other people's words while insisting they have deliberately (or due to lack of a higher education) misinterpreted yours? You shouldn't let your emotions rule your ideas, or at least not control how you express them.

It is the responsibility of the communicator to make themselves understood to their audience, not of the listener to extract a clear meaning from the wreckage of emotional outbursts and definitions de jour.

You have been consistently insulting to more and more people with each post you make, and digging yourself a deeper hole of excuses and rationalisations each time. And the resentment you feel at getting called out for your bullshit gets projected on those holding up the mirror. Yet you are amazed that the more crap you fling the stinkier the situation becomes.

This is your thread. You planted this seed. The bullshit tree has blossomed and born fruit.

Time to accept your responsibility for your actions and choices instead of blaming others. If you really are compelled to correct "falsehoods", it's time to turn that roving eye inwards.


Z.


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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:00:45 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		So is it your point that I shouldn't worry about other people twisting my words because I twist theirs?  If so, what have I twisted?  (And, if not, don't count me as twisting your words; just clarify what you mean.)

Don't mistake me for amazed, though.  I don't expect much.

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Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:01:24 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline 		If anyone has misrepresented your views, child, it is you.

That is not anyone else's fault.

If you would like to disavow your previous statements and your current pompous attitude--please do.

But I repeat:  no one is misreading you.

No one has misunderstood you, except to the degree that you have expressed yourself poorly.

Take this as a given:  we are not your little buddies at school.  We are big scary grown-ups who have spent real hard time living in a big scary world.  We are not members of the tiny, incestuous, cloistered little clique that normally rubberstamps your opinions.  And we are never going to be comfortable with your incredibly narrow and limited worldview, your grotesquely unmerited sense of superiority, or your ignorance of any subject which cannot be addressed by a TI-84 calculator.



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(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:01:40 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord



I'm suggesting that there's a lot of mathematical and scientific concepts that are very high minded, and that if I were to stop working towards my studies of them for a while to pursue other sorts of things.. such as art.. while I may be able to resume them later, I'll not get as far as if I hadn't paused from them.



....now no-one could argue with that, can you see the difference between that and this......

quote:

If I were to take up an artistic dictum, I'd not be able to even understand many scientific concepts.


.....it's possible you don't........but rest assured most people do and should you feel that communication would be an asset in your life then please take that on board.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:03:18 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		How's there a difference?  If I stop studying science and go into art, I won't understand many scientific things that I would've.

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Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:03:37 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's alright.. I'm not really going to go any further with this, although I can appreciate your point.



Huh...

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:06:37 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Way back when I was in university, I atteneded a college with a serious fine arts program.  The first year for the art students was grueling.  They had to work thier asses off to pass the core classes, which were designed to weed out over 50% of them.  While I as a liberal arts major had plenty of free time to  party , pledge a frat, ect. while taking basic courses.  After the art students pass the weed out, thier work became much easier and fun.  But they had to proove they were serious about it, even if they liked to smoke pot.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:07:50 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
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From: Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm not throwing life together; I'm just recognizing that they're not helping (or preparing to help) now, even though they could be.   It's true that they could change later.



Reminds me of Aesop's Fable about the Ant and the Grasshopper.

quote:


The thing I dislike about the words "capitalist" and "socialist" is that they're so extreme, so they're typically used in a very general sense.  Such as, largely, I'm a capitalist; I support the capitalist system and tend to agree with its tenants.

However, I just like aspects of how it works, particularly compared to socialism.  But I'm also for some more socialist ideas, such as basic provisions for all children, everything from food to shelter to education to healthcare.

A large part of this divergence is that I do not see children as the property of their parents; they may be individuals who have nothing, but not by their own fault.

My capitalistic concerns stem from an acknowledgement of reality.  My socialist concerns stem from my idealism.  The latter's a novelity; humanity would get along just fine in a pure capitalism.  It just wouldn't be my ideal.  Humanity would die off in a purely socialist enviroment.  Some compromise of the two strikes me as ideal.


The problem with capitalism is that it promotes and rewards greed and selfishness (which is why there are so many socialist-inspired laws governing its excesses).

The problem with socialism is that it combats greed and selfishness, thus relying on the use of power with all its attendant failings.

Power corrupts, whether in a socialist world or a capitalist world.

People are born greedy and selfish: they are helpless babes dependant upon their ability to motivate everyone else to meet their needs. Ergo, they cry.

However, only capitalism holds this to be a moral virtue.

In reality, we all recognize the need to socialize a child so that the child is thoughful and compassionate of others. Indeed, large chunks of society teach their children that a child's needs comes after those of the adults.

Thus the rebound through the teen years and early adulthood: "my needs come first" as they begin to recognize their ability to influence their world.

Some never outgrow that, some do.

However, from the capitalist point of view, greed and selfishness are moral virtues.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:08:19 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

If anyone has misrepresented your views, child, it is you.

That is not anyone else's fault.

If you would like to disavow your previous statements and your current pompous attitude--please do.


You've misquoted me, stated that I have views that I don't, implied that I have yet more.. and you call this not misrepresenting?  I mean, I'm not even going to get into the name calling.

I'm proud of you for being an adult.  I really am.  And I can respect that you think people who study a lot are members of a "tiny, incestuous, cloistered little clique".  But doesn't your approach strike you as aggressive, presumptious, and little beyond a blantant insult?  Does this truly pass for anything?

I mean, sure, you're a big scary adult.  Due to my age, your insults on a message board really hurt my feelings.  But, I'm trying to put my tears asside for long enough to point out how silly you are.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:09:23 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's alright.. I'm not really going to go any further with this, although I can appreciate your point.



Huh...


You're often going to be confused when you randomly pick up one line in a conversation between two other people, particularly out of context.  Sorta how life goes.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:10:06 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
quote:


Three names:

Carl Sagan
Stephen Jay Gould
Stephen Hawking


Could you explain?  I know Hawking's exceptionally well versed in speaking to the masses, but that's only relative to others in his field and it's not in earnest.


All three are noted scientists whose ability to communicate with laymen in no way inhibited their abilities to communicate with their peers on subjectes of mutual interest.

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 2/15/2008 1:31:37 PM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:12:36 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

How's there a difference?  If I stop studying science and go into art, I won't understand many scientific things that I would've.


...in maths it is possible to substitute terms that mean the same thing.......so 2+2=4 can be expressed as 1+1+2=4.
Language, and by extension communication, is a tad fuzzier. Poets have for years made a living on there being a real difference between the words 'big' and 'large'. The words you use to express what's in your head are not percieved by others from the inside as it were. We don't know what in your head prompted their use. So we have to go on the words you actually use. When you said 'If I were to take up an artistic dictum, I'd not be able to even understand many scientific concepts.', that form of words implies that those who study arts can not, intrinsically, understand science. When you said 'I'm suggesting that there's a lot of mathematical and scientific concepts that are very high minded, and that if I were to stop working towards my studies of them for a while to pursue other sorts of things.. such as art.. while I may be able to resume them later, I'll not get as far as if I hadn't paused from them.' then you merely suggested that we can learn but one thing at a time if we are intending to go deep enough into it. 
So, perhaps, you see how two different forms of words in sentences mean different things.......by being lazy and using the first set of words you just convey a sense of arrogance and ignorance. That automatically means people take you less seriously....that whatever concepts you intended to convey have been compromised by the way you chose to convey them.

Language really matters.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:13:24 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ah, gotcha.  But were they ever able to communicate the true ideas to lay men?  I know Hawkings only communicates the very surface level of things in his books (I'm read both "A Brief History of Time" and "The Elegant Universe").

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:16:59 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Oh, no; I'd stand by the point that I think you may've called ignorant.

If an Art's major came into one of my classrooms and tried to understand.. he couldn't.  He might be able to get things like 1+1.  I'd hope he'd even get the quadratic equation.  But could he solve the wave equation, even when slowly and plainly told how to do so?  I doubt it, as the thought processes necessary to do so haven't been developed.  It takes even people who are good at such things years of concentrated study in the prime of their youth to get such things; is it unreasonable to believe that it may be beyond people who are older and more set in their thoughts?

Editted to be fair.  It'd be rather silly of me to misrepresent you when I'm bashing other people for it.  :P

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/15/2008 1:18:42 PM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:18:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL CuriousLord

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's alright.. I'm not really going to go any further with this (...) .



You uttered the nonsense that you wouldn't take this much further on the second page of this thread. It takes wisdom to accept one is wrong, or out of their depth.

Wisdom often comes with experience: remember that having the last word doesn't necessarily make you a 'winner', little one.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/15/2008 1:20:58 PM >

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