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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 8:48:55 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

Thank you for bringing the following quote forward:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun. 



Does anyone else think that smacks of Puritanism?

Fun is bad?

Working class pursuing dreams is bad?

Working class lifting its nose off the grindstone to see the stars is bad?

Higher education for working class shouldn't amount to more than a trade school?

So who should be 'entitled' to pursue the arts? Who should write our books, paint our pictures, carve our marble, compose our symphonies?

The rich?


So.. I diss Art major's, and you somehow connect that to hating poor people?  How's that work?  Did I say, "Poor people shouldn't go into Art majors, but it's great for rich people"?

PPS-  You may not get this, but in this world, being able to go to college and waste your time on an Art major does mean you're a rich person, even if you're not rich by American standards.

PS-  You might want to understand part of my frustration.

As an American, a guy can get by with an Art major.  So can his family.  He may not be rolling in cash, but it can be fun.  Which would be cool, if there were no other people in the world.

People suffer all around this world, many for things that they can't even begin to help, such as stravation.  Tell me, is there any other means than willful ignorance in which I could accept stopping to have fun as not being complicit in their suffering?

People in general have this really distorted view of casuality.  Like doing something that causes something to not be in the future is any different from doing something that causes something which could've been in the future not to be.  Such as food for starving people.

It's just so damn comforting to not be able to relate the two.  There's good reason to, but it's overpowered by the human sense of, "This would not be a comfortable thing for me to acknowledge".  Truth goes through a "Is this acceptable to me?" filter, afterall.. not an "Is this true?" filter.  Which is freaking great, because the human prospective has evolved in a distorted manner; it's not out for accuracy, it's out to cause individuals to serve themselves and those immediately around them enough to be genetically superior.

It seems that willful ignorance is an aspect of the heart and soul of what it means to be a human.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/15/2008 9:17:50 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 8:52:57 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's kind of silly to be worried about who's "better".  Couldn't "different" just fly?



Wouldn't that also apply to the Art Majors you've mentioned? And the hippies, and pot-smokers?


Yeah, sure.  We'll get the murderers and child molesters in while we're at it.

I was trying to be nice to a lady that struck me as easily confused and kill the stupid ego contest, not promote the idea that everything is all the same.  Because I really hate that idea.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 8:56:45 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

Funny you should mention that:

"I spend all day reading science texts."

"I'm just so tired of seeing Art majors and guys working at Pizza Hut.  It's not the poor people I'm mad at, but the people who don't do anything or spend their time with self-gratifying things.


Yeah.  Because science gets me off.  It's not stressing at all to be under constant deadlines.  The fact that I often have CM open to the side to do something that's not work while I work really speaks to just how much I enjoy this.


PS- You replied to me a lot; I'm going to cut it off here to avoid spamming too much.  If there's any particular point you want to press, I'd be willing to address it in a later post or/and on PM.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/15/2008 8:58:46 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 9:45:22 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun. 



.............................................

People suffer all around this world, many for things that they can't even begin to help, such as stravation.  Tell me, is there any other means than willful ignorance in which I could accept stopping to have fun as not being complicit in their suffering?



.....so your thesis is that Arts Majors have no connection to the reality of the world and only do it because it's fun?

Do something for me.....google the following words and phrases, "Guernica", "Oh what a lovely war", anything by Brecht, Art Therapy, anything by Doris Lessing, Live Aid, and (because it seems you need to see art as purely and exclusively fun) Angel of the North.

Those who stay in the arts don't just do so as a doss, because its fun........because, in the real world you mention, working in the arts is hard. Arts workers may look as though they're having fun but are you seriously suggesting that maths majors never have fun with their medium too? 'Cos if you do, then you'd be lying.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:04:15 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Guernica: a painting by Picasso is a load of incomprehensible "bollux"
Had it not got a title it could about anything at all
Also there is some controversy as to what really happened there.
Was it an atrocity carried out by Franco's troops or a scorched Earth policy carried out by the revolutionaries.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:07:53 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		philo, by 'Art major' CL refers to any university subject that isn't science, doesn't he? Law, Education, Politics, Sociology as well as Philosophy and other useless things. Those are all Arts subjects (I did Politics, and wasted four years of university time).

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:09:28 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		George Bush didnt take politics, wasted 4 years of university, and look where it got him.

Ron

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:13:16 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

philo, by 'Art major' CL refers to any university subject that isn't science, doesn't he?


...to be fair i doubt it. Even CL surely wouldn't try to portray the study of Law as fun........would he?

.....and just for CL to give him a laugh, how do you tell who the grad psych students are?
Because they're the ones in white coats saying "we are soooooo scientists"

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:17:50 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

philo, by 'Art major' CL refers to any university subject that isn't science, doesn't he?


...to be fair i doubt it. Even CL surely wouldn't try to portray the study of Law as fun........would he?

.....and just for CL to give him a laugh, how do you tell who the grad psych students are?
Because they're the ones in white coats saying "we are soooooo scientists"


Psychology students are frauds, and they should be hung: they have way too much fun for them to be twue scientists. You know that too, philo, you trouble-maker. And put out that doobie!

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:20:34 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Psychology students are frauds, and they should be hung: they have way too much fun for them to be twue scientists. You know that too, philo, you trouble-maker. And put out that doobie!


hah.........and thats not a doobie, thats my cigarette........lol

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 10:40:06 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

hah.........and thats not a doobie, thats my cigarette........lol



Hmmmm... well it smells suspiciously socialistic to me...  .



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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:02:02 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

hah.........and thats not a doobie, thats my cigarette........lol



Hmmmm... well it smells suspiciously socialistic to me...  .




...you want to share it with me? How anti-capitalistic.....sure you're not an arts student?

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:14:52 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

philo, by 'Art major' CL refers to any university subject that isn't science, doesn't he? Law, Education, Politics, Sociology as well as Philosophy and other useless things.


Which orifice did you pull your words out of this time, kittin?

Sure, it's mean; but I'm bashing people for being lazy and unproductive, and you're willfully making up the bit about me being against the people who are productive.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:18:18 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

philo, by 'Art major' CL refers to any university subject that isn't science, doesn't he? Law, Education, Politics, Sociology as well as Philosophy and other useless things.


Which orifice did you pull your words out of this time, kittin?

Sure, it's mean; but I'm bashing people for being lazy and unproductive, and you're willfully making up the bit about me being against the people who are productive.



As long as you realise you're being totally out of order by putting everyone that's different from yourself into the same basket by calling them all 'socialists' (as if it were an insult), we're going to have fun with you. I thought that's what you wanted?

It's quite obvious I pulled that one out of my cunt  .

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:19:27 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		philosophy, I'm not sure what some artists do in the real world.  I'm sure some of them may even have found ways to help others.  Some of them are certainly productive.  But my rant isn't about them.

I'm talking about Arts majors.  The guys who I live with who are studying these things because they're more fun and easier than something else.  They don't have plans to contribute.  They don't really care.  They just smoke their pot and get by.  And then they want other people to support them with social programs after college.

Perhaps the biggest issue with the OP is that I wasn't straightfoward in saying that.  (I'd strongly defend that someone should've been able to tell, but I suppose the empiracle data would be against me on that one.)


PS-  So there's no more misunderstanding.. even when above, when I said "I'm talking about Arts majors".  I don't mean, "I'm talking abou all Arts majors".  I mean "I'm talking about some Arts majors".  There's a specific sort of person I'm ranting about.  I keep relying on context for that to be picked up to avoid the tedium of having to specifically define it, but it's becoming apparent that my approach to communcation here is flawed.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/15/2008 11:24:20 AM >

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:21:54 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

As long as you realise you're being totally out of order by putting everyone that's different from yourself into the same basket by calling them all 'socialists' (as if it were an insult), we're going to have fun with you. I thought that's what you wanted?

It's quite obvious I pulled that one out of my cunt  .


Nothing's out of order; you're just misunderstanding and taking it as your progative to contribute to the misunderstanding.  Honestly, do you remember when you started a thread about "bitches"?  How do you think your behavior qualifies at this moment?

Not that this is a whine.  If you get on my nerves, I'll just block you.  But, I mean.. com'n.  You're being what you claimed to have a distaste for.

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:42:08 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

People suffer all around this world, many for things that they can't even begin to help, such as stravation.  Tell me, is there any other means than willful ignorance in which I could accept stopping to have fun as not being complicit in their suffering?

People in general have this really distorted view of casuality.  Like doing something that causes something to not be in the future is any different from doing something that causes something which could've been in the future not to be.  Such as food for starving people.



Well, you see, the problem with this is that it is national governments that prevent these starving people from being fed, for national governments such as Canada and the U.S. either store food or subsidize farmers not to grow it so as to keep the price of food relatively stable.

We grow far more food than we could possibly use, and thus export the rest. However, if we start handing it out, the bottom falls out of the market.

I'm sure capitalists would agree this would be a "bad thing".

So the price of profit for the multi-nationals and food industry is people starving to death ... a small price to pay for the endowments and research grants to the science department of your university.

For it is the taxes on those profits that benefit everything the government pays for: law enforcement, your military, support for schools and universities ... etc.

America has a financial interest in starving people so as to keep the price of food steady for Americans and so as to reap taxes off of profits from companies that benefit from the fact there are starving people in the world.

And strangely enough it is not the science majors who organize relief efforts like FarmAid or benefits for those who starve ... these are organized by the Art Majors like Bono.

And these benefits (which do not raise nearly enough money to address the problem) serve another purpose: they heighten awareness and encourage compassion for those less fortunate (which is to say, those who are not directly benefitting from American foreign policies).

So as you can see, starving people is not a science problem ... it is an economic problem in which you are "being complicit in their suffering" by benefitting from the tax revenues generated by the profits of a food industry that would cheerfully sell food to the starving, if only the starving can afford the food.

Does that mean no one should have fun till the problem is solved?

Well, CL, last I heard, sex was fun. Should we all abstain?


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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:44:49 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's kind of silly to be worried about who's "better".  Couldn't "different" just fly?



Wouldn't that also apply to the Art Majors you've mentioned? And the hippies, and pot-smokers?


Yeah, sure.  We'll get the murderers and child molesters in while we're at it.

I was trying to be nice to a lady that struck me as easily confused and kill the stupid ego contest, not promote the idea that everything is all the same.  Because I really hate that idea.


So you lump Art Majors, hippies, pot-smokers, murderers and child molesters all together to show how much you hate the idea that "everything is all the same"?

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:49:03 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

So you lump Art Majors, hippies, pot-smokers, murderers and child molesters all together to show how much you hate the idea that "everything is all the same"?


Sure.  And scientists, engineers, teachers, politicans, etc.  We're all people.  But we're not all the same.

I went with the negative things before the positives because, even though I'm right, I had to make you want to agree with me.  People believe in selfish things, after all.  If I said artists and scientists were different, wouldn't people who like artists be inclined to say, "How?  That's not true!"  But since I said artists and murders are different, you'll readily agree with me.

Not that both points aren't true, but you're less likely to agrue with the latter, correct?

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RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 11:51:50 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I'm not against fun.  I'm just against having fun at everything when it's not productive.  Such as when you spend all of your time drawing trees in parks when you could be learning to do anything from farming to teaching to medical care.

Also, I'm not going to blame "the governments" for everything.  Everyone who could do something but doesn't is complicit.  The governments aren't innocent, but they're also not someone I'm going to accept you pointing to as the sole guilty party.

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