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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 6:06:06 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

Tolerance of differences?
I didn't say you couldn't disagree, it's your right. I said it because you start with racism exists, but I'm certain it's not a factor this time.
quote:

Racism indeed reared its ugly head in the wake of Katrina. As did greed, criminal intent and a host of other ills
Nothing that wasn't already there began because of Katrina. Criminals remained criminals, decent people remained decent unless they need to take desperate measures to survive, racial inequities and biases became more glaring as evidenced by the response from a government that is usually all over it's disasters (See NYC, and Florida responses).
quote:

My point was simply that they are not the driving force behind the pathetic response of our government. I've marched, talked, voted and fought for civil rights all my life. But I'm sick and tired of every problem being painted over as racism when it simply isn't the case.
Every problem is not painted over as racism, but if you want to tell me examples of what you mean, I can have a better idea of what you are talking about. You feel free to go ahead and Be sick and tired, it's your prerogative.

I'm sick and tired too, of seeing it happen, living with it, and even speaking about it. No part of this discussion makes me happy, but I will not shut up for your comfort. If my speaking about it bothers you, build yourself a bridge, or block my posts. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/29/2005 6:44:33 AM >


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 10:35:36 AM   
sub4hire


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I received this in e-mail today...no clue as to who wrote it but it seems to fit in this thread.

What's really behind the chaos in New Orleans?

Back in the 70's, my wife, baby daughter, and I lived in Goodna,
Queensland, a suburb of Brisbane.
We were young and inexperienced and like most couples our age lived pretty much hand to mouth. It was a struggle to make ends meet. Any savings we had went as a down payment on the home we were buying. Once a week my wife went shopping and bought the food and supplies we would need the following week.

Like the Southeastern United States, the area we lived in was
subtropical and prone to cyclones (same as hurricanes). One day a
cyclone approached our area. It wasn't a big one as cyclones go, so we weren't too concerned. We figured 6-12 hours of high winds and all
would be back to normal. Except things didn't go exactly according to plans.
The cyclone moved in over top of us and hit up against another pressure front and stopped dead. And there it sat for two days. Not too much wind but oh did it rain. An inch an hour for 48 hours. That's right - we got nearly four feet of rain.

Now Brisbane is built on the Brisbane River, not an impressive river as
rivers go - only a few feet deep and a hundred feet wide in the western
suburbs where we lived. At least during normal times. Four feet of
water over several hundred square miles is one hell of a lot of water. Trust me on that one - I've seen it. And all of that water all had to get to
the sea via the Brisbane River. During the night, our little Brisbane
River rose and rose. The police were magnificent. They woke people up and evacuated thousands of homes during that long night. Only two people drowned in our area - residents of a mobile home park whose trailer was swept away. The police commandeered trucks and backed them up to the local grocery store and loaded all the food and necessities, drove them to high ground and parked them.

By mid morning the river was 60 feet deep and three miles wide. We
lived on a hill so we weren't submerged. When you walked over the crest of the hill and looked down into the valley where there was once a highway, railroad line, shopping centers, and thousands of homes you were stunned into silence. All you could see was water everywhere. No electric poles, no roof tops, nothing. Everything was under water.

We took stock of our situation - it wasn't good. The flood came on our
weekly shopping day so the house contained very little food. We had
some candles and a flashlight. Nothing else. There was no electricity or
water. Fortunately it was warm weather.

We were in stunned disbelief. So were our neighbors. However, we
decided we had better quickly organize ourselves. We knew we were going to be isolated and without water or power for some time. We started collecting all the rain water we could. Without it we were screwed. We dismantled and reassembled a non-mortared barbecue under our carport.

We started collecting all the firewood we could find. We assessed the food situation. Some people had full freezers. We separated what we could eat over the next several days and dug pits and buried the rest. Everyone shared what they had without a single word of what came from whom.

Needless to say we survived - and in good shape. The R.A.A.F flew some food supplies in (especially fresh bread that the local prison was
baking and fresh, unpasteurized milk from local farmers.) by helicopter.
In fact I look back on those days with some fondness. Our carport became the hub of the neighborhood. At night we would just sit around the fire and talk.

The thousands of people who were displaced didn't go to refugee camps.
They went into the homes of those not flooded - sometimes friends or
relatives, often strangers. Nobody forced you to take in another
family, everyone just did it.

Hundreds of millions of dollars was raised throughout Australia. The
relief agencies didn't screw around with the money either. As soon as
the water receded in a weeks time, they set up centers in every hamlet.
Anyone who was submerged was given an initial $4,000 in CASH to tide them through. More came later. Was there some abuse? A few instances but not many and then there was follow-up to deal with that.. Was there any looting? Virtually none.

What does this have to do with New Orleans? Plenty.

Why didn't the people in the Superdome make any effort to organize
themselves?
Why didn't groups of men patrol the restrooms to prevent rapes?

We have gone a long way in the past 40 years to creating a dysfunctional society where self reliance, pride in one's self and a sense of right and wrong are no longer esteemed or even valued.

We have allowed our government and media to say to people that you are not at fault for what you do. You are victims, little children who can't look after yourselves.

We have told our minorities that everything that goes wrong is the
result of racism. That you cannot succeed in a racist society.

We have told the dysfunctional that we will look after you no matter
how egregiously you act.

We have excused crime saying that poverty creates crime, when we all
instinctively know that it is the crime that creates poverty.

We have told young women that it okay to have babies without fathers.
There is no stigma attached - in fact if you have a baby we will shower
you with money and benefits so you can move out of your parent's house and have even more babies. Even if this guarantees your babies will be raised in poverty.

We have told young men that it is okay to father as many children as
you can. The government will assume the father's traditional role and look after the mother and babies.

And most importantly, we have called morals old fashioned and
judgmental. What right does society have to say that something is right
or wrong?

And what have we gotten for this? (not to mention the $1 trillion we
have spent on the poor) Citizens who, at the first sign of trouble,
stand around bewildered. You see it on the news. Faces screaming, "Help me!", "Tell me what to do!"

God help us. We're reaping what we sowed.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 1:45:00 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

We have gone a long way in the past 40 years to creating a dysfunctional society where self reliance, pride in one's self and a sense of right and wrong are no longer esteemed or even valued.

We have allowed our government and media to say to people that you are not at fault for what you do. You are victims, little children who can't look after yourselves.

We have told our minorities that everything that goes wrong is the
result of racism. That you cannot succeed in a racist society.

We have told the dysfunctional that we will look after you no matter
how egregiously you act.

We have excused crime saying that poverty creates crime, when we all
instinctively know that it is the crime that creates poverty.

We have told young women that it okay to have babies without fathers.
There is no stigma attached - in fact if you have a baby we will shower
you with money and benefits so you can move out of your parent's house and have even more babies. Even if this guarantees your babies will be raised in poverty.

We have told young men that it is okay to father as many children as
you can. The government will assume the father's traditional role and look after the mother and babies.

And most importantly, we have called morals old fashioned and
judgmental. What right does society have to say that something is right
or wrong?
Thanks, but I will pass on this one which basically says they deserved what they got in a round about way, because they made poor choices, allowed their survival/predatory instincts to kick in after feeling abandoned/destitute in a hell full of water. I'm not a person who relinquishes responsibility (or excuses irresponsible behavior) because of color or creed.

Most people given the knowledge, ability and choice do not wish to live in destitute circumstances. If anyone thinks that the majority of the poor live that way even though they know beter, have the means to do better but choose to live like virtual animals, is a person who believes a segment of society is less than (because of poor moral fiber), is a person who believes in the caste system which says everyone gets what he or she deserves, and therefore I don't have to help/think about the less fortunate (as we all are exactly where we are supposed to be).
I certainly can't argue with or change the mind of someone like this, but I do believe in God/karma, in that we all reap what we sow in the end.
I know that the way some treat others is a sin and a shame, but fortunately disaster/misfortune doesn't discriminate in the end. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/29/2005 1:59:44 PM >


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 3:35:47 PM   
Lordandmaster


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People who enjoy the long end of the stick ALWAYS want to believe that everyone gets what they deserve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Thanks, but I will pass on this one which basically says they deserved what they got in a round about way, because they made poor choices, allowed their survival/predatory instincts to kick in after feeling abandoned/destitute in a hell full of water.


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 3:51:00 PM   
pinkpleasures


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quote:

My point was simply that they are not the driving force behind the pathetic response of our government. I've marched, talked, voted and fought for civil rights all my life. But I'm sick and tired of every problem being painted over as racism when it simply isn't the case. Every problem is not painted over as racism, but if you want to tell me examples of what you mean, I can have a better idea of what you are talking about. You feel free to go ahead and Be sick and tired, it's your prerogative.

quote:

I'm sick and tired too, of seeing it happen, living with it, and even speaking about it. No part of this discussion makes me happy, but I will not shut up for your comfort. If my speaking about it bothers you, build yourself a bridge, or block my posts. M

BlkTallFullfig

i hope for the day when racism is irrelevant, but i don't expect to live to see it. i think it's a human fraility and sin that we're always going to struggle with...especially here in the US.

pinkpleasures


< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 9/29/2005 3:52:15 PM >


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 4:37:37 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Thanks, but I will pass on this one which basically says they deserved what they got in a round about way, because they made poor choices, allowed their survival/predatory instincts to kick in after feeling abandoned/destitute in a hell full of water.


About a hour ago, NBC did a segment on how much of the reports of "uncivilized behavior" haven't check out. For example, instead of "hundreds of dead" in the Superbowl, there were exactly eight bodies, all adults, no children, and they all seemed to have died of natural causes.

It might just be basic human nature, but a sense a bit of "spin control" in those stories. "We can't help them because they are subhuman" sort of thing. Remember FEMA delayed sending people to New Orleans for two days to they could deliver seminars, reported by CNN, about "making the agency look good in a disaster situation." It's interesting that this "email" seems to have appeared from an unknown source but someone felt it was credible enough to republish it here. Just the fact that it must have included permission to republish makes me wonder if it isn't part of an organized effort at disinformation.

I think we'll find that most people behaved admirably in a very bad situation and are being victimized again.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 9/29/2005 5:51:41 PM >


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 5:33:30 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
We have told young men that it is okay to father as many children as
you can. The government will assume the father's traditional role and look after the mother and babies.

And most importantly, we have called morals old fashioned and
judgmental. What right does society have to say that something is right
or wrong?


The first half of the email was an interesting anecdote. The last half was simply standard right wing pap that was tacked on and really didn't fit what was being discussed. What a disappointment - I was expecting to read something meaningful.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 6:12:12 PM   
sub4hire


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quote:

The first half of the email was an interesting anecdote. The last half was simply standard right wing pap that was tacked on and really didn't fit what was being discussed. What a disappointment - I was expecting to read something meaningful


Well as I said it is one of many that have made my inbox recently. There are a number of political e-mails that make my inbox on a daily basis.
I agree with part of it and not other part's. I did feel part of it belonged in this thread, considering all that has been discussed thus far.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 8:04:36 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

About a hour ago, NBC did a segment on how much of the reports of "uncivilized behavior" haven't check out. For example, instead of "hundreds of dead" in the Superbowl, there were exactly eight bodies, all adults, no children, and they all seemed to have died of natural causes.

It might just be basic human nature, but a sense a bit of "spin control" in those stories. "We can't help them because they are subhuman" sort of thing.
I think we'll find that most people behaved admirably in a very bad situation and are being victimized again.
I a gree that most people behaved admirably well given their circumstances including feeling abandoned in these United States (the only world superpower) while trapped. I think everyone's obssession with the FEW criminals rather than the decent is simply a way to assuage any guilt and make it acceptable to imagine that since the victims are less human, ethically/morally corrupt, they also therefore are less deserving of our best effort.

I think the person who wrote the above email will have a lot to answer for when he meets his maker. I don't waste time wishing anyone ill, because I know that everyone in his lifetime will be humbled by one misfortune or another (illness, natural disasters, man made disasters, etc); everyone in his lifetime will have the opportunity to feel his brother's pain. The only important thing becomes whether we learn something, and become better for it. M

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 9:26:51 PM   
target


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Sorry BTF but you seem eager to see the worst in anyone elses opinion and quick to condemn those you don't deem tolerant enough. If it weren't sad it would be funny.

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 10:04:35 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
I think the person who wrote the above email will have a lot to answer for when he meets his maker.


I think whoever wrote it, and it may have several authors who have embroidered it as it got passed along, is trying to take advantage of a catastrophe to do a little political preaching.

Snopes.com doesn't have a file on it yet, but I hope they get the scoop on its origins. A search on Google shows at least two webpages which have posted the letter.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/29/2005 10:28:46 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

Sorry BTF but you seem eager to see the worst in anyone elses opinion and quick to condemn those you don't deem tolerant enough.
You don't need to be sorry about saying what you think. I only speak of my knowledge/feeling or experience, and you can speak of yours. I don't know who is tolerant enough, and have only written of the impression I've gotten from reading or watching. Otherwise I don't know you from Adam, and don't care that much if you're tolerant enough or not.

If I saw the worst in everyone, I wouldn't be on this site, and I certainly wouldn't consider dating or getting attached outside of my race. I happen to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt (treat them as decent human beings worthy of respect, and possessing of integrity), until I have reason to believe otherwise.

For example, I don't have a problem with you just because you're absolutely certain racism is not a factor, and I am absolutely certain that it is. I do have a problem with anyone telling me what to do though, being the baddass domme that I am. You can tell me I think this, but don't come at me with rage, because you are NOT more sick of talking about racism than I am. Disagreeing with your view is not the same as calling you racist, so don't think of it as condemning, because thus far, I don't have evidence to suggest you are.

I didn't like Gloria's post, but Gloria knows I don't condemn her, and if I did, I would do directly with her, because I respect her, and she's always treated me with respect. I do think posting that phucked up prejudicial article was wrong of her to do, but she and I will discuss it privately *(now I sound like I have a punishment scene for Gloria, though I know she's much tougher than I, and would kick my ass)*.

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 2:36:32 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

And what have we gotten for this? (not to mention the $1 trillion we
have spent on the poor) Citizens who, at the first sign of trouble,
stand around bewildered. You see it on the news. Faces screaming, "Help me!", "Tell me what to do!"

God help us. We're reaping what we sowed.
I couldn't find the author of your article, but I did find former Education Secretary William Bennet (served under former pres Bush, and Reagan) has just written a "Book of Virtues", and he also made the following statement on a radio show.
quote:

abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down”

I wonder if there is a connection? I know everyone here is going to be shocked anyone feels this way, and of course he is the only person in the US who could possibly have these sick thoughts. To me, the shocking part is that he may have been to drunk to control those thoughts before they parted his lips. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/30/2005 3:08:25 AM >


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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 3:17:13 AM   
onceburned


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Bennet made the comment on his syndicated radio show, in response to a caller about abortions threatening the solvency of Social Security. He was trying to say that economic arguments shouldn't be made when discussing moral issues.

quote:

If it were your sole purpose to reduce crime, Bennett said, "You could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.

"That would be an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he added.


Oddly, he continued to defend this example when interviewed by ABC News:

quote:

He said he was merely extrapolating from the best-selling book "Freakonomics," which posits the hypothesis that falling crimes rates are related to increased abortion rates decades ago. "It would have worked for, you know, single-parent moms; it would have worked for male babies, black babies," Bennett said.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Politics/story?id=1171385&page=1

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 7:36:10 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

*(now I sound like I have a punishment scene for Gloria, though I know she's much tougher than I, and would kick my ass)*.


Nah, you're the fem dom here...

Anyway, as I state to those who condemn anything I say. This is a message board and a message board is for idea's. I still believe the post belonged here. I also stand by my convictions.
As you already know I am not like most who post on these board's.
I do applaud you for actually having an opinion though...most who condemn don't.....hehe

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 10:05:33 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


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He thinks kill them before they grow is a good way to control a race he deems undesirable, from a man who has been the education secretary and the drug czar. Gee I'm sure he was just in his application of the law from those positions.
His statements are shocking, and disturbing, and the reason statements like "I didn't own any slaves" doesn't wash as proof that one is or isn't a white supremacist. Generally being a little bit supremacist in one's thinking doesn't bother me, but this man has held important positions, is friends with people who run the nation, is on a syndicated radion show, has followers, and he has children he's teaching this to. God help us all.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/bennett200411031109.asp
http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/050603.asp
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1372

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 11:16:33 AM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
this man has held important positions, is friends with people who run the nation, is on a syndicated radion show, has followers, and he has children he's teaching this to. God help us all.


Yes, Bill Bennett is a darling of the Religious Right. He continues to have an influential voice, even though he is no longer a government leader.

Suggesting that the genocide of a race would reduce crime plays into white supremacist thinking. Even though he immediately dismissed it as immoral during the radio show, the seed was planted in the minds of some that reducing the black population would reduce crime. And that is what they will remember - that a respected leader suggested it as a means to an end.

Bennett can feel comfortable making such idle speculations because they do not affect him. He is white, he is rich and he is male - its triple privileged position in our society.

Sadly, what he neglected to mention is that reducing poverty will reduce crime rates. And reducing poverty is a moral position which doesn't involve maligning an entire race of people.



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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 11:20:51 AM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
This is a message board and a message board is for idea's. I still believe the post belonged here. I also stand by my convictions.


You mentioned that there were parts of the email you agreed with and parts you didn't. Would you mind explaining which parts you agreed with?

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RE: I was wrong about racism in New Orleans - 9/30/2005 12:00:49 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I just heard about this today too, and I'm amazed that Bennett is still around to talk about it. People have been fired for much much less.

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Profile   Post #: 99
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