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RE: Shibari - 2/15/2008 9:06:37 PM

SovereignDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

http://eros-zine.com/articles/2006-04-04/rope_bondage0404/
By Midori, inarguably the top shibari artist in the U.S.

Ummm... I'm not sure I would agree that Midori is "inarguably the top shibari artist in the US." Yes, she is somebody who is knowledgeable, and can do a nice tie or two, but hardly is she the top.

Take care,
Michael

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RE: Shibari - 2/16/2008 12:50:17 PM

Rogue86

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I"m certainly not suggesting that true Shibari cannot be found in practice outside of Japan. However, any American 'innovation' - and we do like to 'fiddle' with other people's ideas - would no longer qualify as Shibari in my opinion. That doesn't mean there isn't some amazing adaptations and additions to traditional Japanese ropework here in the States.

Consider this: You can certainly find French cuisine here, both from French Chefs and American Chefs who study the French approach to food. But once they start making changes to what is traditional, it becomes something other than French cooking... it becomes "Creole" or "Fusion" or something else. Still delicious, still a skilled creation built upon French technique.. but no longer French.

At least, that's how I see it.

- Rogue86

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RE: Shibari - 2/18/2008 12:46:49 PM

Guilty1974

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignDaddy

Ummm... I'm not sure I would agree that Midori is "inarguably the top shibari artist in the US." Yes, she is somebody who is knowledgeable, and can do a nice tie or two, but hardly is she the top

Whether or not she's the top, I wouldn't know. I haven't many americans tie. But aside from that, I don't think I've ever seen her call her own work shibari.

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RE: Shibari - 2/25/2008 5:04:47 PM

Kinbakudayo

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Hello Skully,

Its not really semantics per se. Kinbaku has a lot of basic forms built into its designs. The artistry of it is to have your own artistic take on it using the forms to keep your partner safe. I can give you a few examples of this from the japanese websites if you wish.

The distinctions that many make on shibari done here in the west is that while it has some of the look of of that kind of bondage in it, they dont really have any of the simple forms that kinbaku is based on. However many in japan tie similar to how we do here in theUS, so you really cant make the is it japanese or not arguement.

When pointed out in pictures this becomes really easy to spot.

Hope this clears some things up.

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RE: Shibari - 2/25/2008 5:17:12 PM

Lumus

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I know this chick she lives down on Melrose
She ain't satisfied without some pain
Friday night is goin' up inside her...again
Well crack the whip
'Cause that bitch is just insane
I'm serious

She's pretty tied up
Hangin' upside down
She's pretty tied up
An you can ride her
She's pretty tied up
Hangin' upside down
I can't tell you she's the right one
Oh no, oh no, oh no...

_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

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RE: Shibari - 2/25/2008 5:47:47 PM

Skully7000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinbakudayo

Hello Skully,

Its not really semantics per se. Kinbaku has a lot of basic forms built into its designs. The artistry of it is to have your own artistic take on it using the forms to keep your partner safe. I can give you a few examples of this from the japanese websites if you wish.

The distinctions that many make on shibari done here in the west is that while it has some of the look of of that kind of bondage in it, they dont really have any of the simple forms that kinbaku is based on. However many in japan tie similar to how we do here in theUS, so you really cant make the is it japanese or not arguement.

When pointed out in pictures this becomes really easy to spot.

Hope this clears some things up.

Kinbakudayo,
I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here so please send me some links...I'm always willing to see more examples of rope work I can learn from...
but to me it all falls back into the different schools of a single style. You can call it Karate yet have many different styles that classify as Karate. I have seen a few different people directly from japan doing there ropework here in the US and while i could definitly pick up similarities I could also see differences between them. perhaps they were not doing "shibari" but they were japanese trained in the are of Japanese Rope bondage and doing a performance based on their knowledge of the traditional Japanese Rope bondage. so when does any variation from it disqualify it as being traditional Japanese Shibari? and just becuase a person learns from a book and is located in america doesn't make it any less traditional Shibari(assuming the book is accurate and being followed accurately)

and this isn't directed at you or anyone one else in particular...honestly at this point i'm just a little frustrated at people taking what i do consider an argument of semantics a bit to far...nitpicking, and overtly P.C. but as I said I look foward to new information and hopefully that will change my viewpoint.
Cheers
Skully

< Message edited by Skully7000 -- 2/25/2008 5:49:33 PM >

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RE: Shibari - 2/25/2008 10:50:22 PM

Guilty1974

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skully7000
I have seen a few different people directly from japan doing there ropework here in the US and while i could definitly pick up similarities I could also see differences between them. perhaps they were not doing "shibari" but they were japanese trained in the are of Japanese Rope bondage and doing a performance based on their knowledge of the traditional Japanese Rope bondage.

So they may have studied with different teachers, or learned some variations there. Or they adapted their stuff a little to suit their western models. Or...

quote:

and just becuase a person learns from a book and is located in america doesn't make it any less traditional Shibari(assuming the book is accurate and being followed accurately)

In theory I'd say you're right. On the other hand, learning from a book is difficult, there's no-one there to correct your subtle errors, and if you find such a book (or, for instance, when you order instruction DVD's like Mai Randa's), it's likely to be in Japanese. So unless you speak the language very well, you only have the pics to base your knowledge on.

< Message edited by Guilty1974 -- 2/25/2008 10:52:31 PM >

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RE: Shibari - 2/25/2008 11:22:05 PM

Guilty1974

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But let's twist the discussion a little. To those who consider it all just semantics: what does it add for you to call your ropework shibari?

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RE: Shibari - 2/26/2008 3:48:01 PM

Kinbakudayo

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Hello Skully,

Sure thing will give you a few looks at things if you dont mind.

So lets stay on the kinbaku artists for a sec. These guys in Japan are undisputed at doing kinbaku. You will notice that a few patterns in the rope appear alot.

http://www.sugiuranorio.jp/

I shared this with someone earlier today its the website of a very famous photographer (Sugiura) in Japan but not so in the west. He worked with many of the greats in kinbaku.

http://ropemagic.art.coocan.jp/index.html

On the Japanese doing it half like us and half kinbaku side is ropemagic he does some things kinbaku and some not but it is all Japanese. Now the fun of this is see what paterns he does match up with the other site and you will start to notice some basic parts match up.

Master K's book "The Beauty of Kinbaku" is right now getting ready to go to press and that will make things like this easier for us english speakers.

Here is something that happened with him last year.

http://www.laalternative.com/index.php/2006/03/10/untying-shibari/

and the bonus round

http://nawashi.32ch.com/

Thats Denki Achechi that passed on a couple years ago there are some great pictures of his rope work there.

Have a good one.

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RE: Shibari - 2/26/2008 6:47:15 PM

Skully7000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinbakudayo

Hello Skully,

Sure thing will give you a few looks at things if you dont mind.

So lets stay on the kinbaku artists for a sec. These guys in Japan are undisputed at doing kinbaku. You will notice that a few patterns in the rope appear alot.

http://www.sugiuranorio.jp/

I shared this with someone earlier today its the website of a very famous photographer (Sugiura) in Japan but not so in the west. He worked with many of the greats in kinbaku.

http://ropemagic.art.coocan.jp/index.html

On the Japanese doing it half like us and half kinbaku side is ropemagic he does some things kinbaku and some not but it is all Japanese. Now the fun of this is see what paterns he does match up with the other site and you will start to notice some basic parts match up.

Master K's book "The Beauty of Kinbaku" is right now getting ready to go to press and that will make things like this easier for us english speakers.

Here is something that happened with him last year.

http://www.laalternative.com/index.php/2006/03/10/untying-shibari/

and the bonus round

http://nawashi.32ch.com/

Thats Denki Achechi that passed on a couple years ago there are some great pictures of his rope work there.

Have a good one.

Thanks for the links. It was quite beautiful and the article about master K was perfect.

Cheers
Skully

(in reply to Kinbakudayo)

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RE: Shibari - 2/27/2008 12:57:50 PM

Kinbakudayo

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Sure thing Skully, you are welcome.

Feel free to ask any question on the subject you wish. We speak japanese and are students of Master K, so we might have an answer or two to some of the questions posed on the subject of kinbaku.

Have a good one...

< Message edited by Kinbakudayo -- 2/27/2008 12:59:03 PM >

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RE: Shibari - 3/31/2008 10:40:08 AM

Esinem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

But let's twist the discussion a little. To those who consider it all just semantics: what does it add for you to call your ropework shibari?

I think it's more a question that misusing it:
a) Devalues the work of those who have invested time and effort in perfecting the art, i.e. the 6 or so grand masters, not the wannabes.
b) Encourages bad practice by failing to distinhuish between tried and tested technique and some inept's, unknowingly dangerous, interpretation of something he has seen on the net.

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RE: Shibari - 3/31/2008 3:20:13 PM

Guilty1974

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinem

I think it's more a question that misusing it:
a) Devalues the work of those who have invested time and effort in perfecting the art, i.e. the 6 or so grand masters, not the wannabes.
b) Encourages bad practice by failing to distinhuish between tried and tested technique and some inept's, unknowingly dangerous, interpretation of something he has seen on the net.

Jup, I agree, but I took a different approach in asking my question :o)

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RE: Shibari - 3/31/2008 8:40:32 PM

MisterStrongWill

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From those who I have met that say they practice Shibari 2 things are most important..Tight and movement restrictive. Some also feel that prolonged times of bondage is also a common quality. Shibari is not for rookies!

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Post #: 34

RE: Shibari - 4/11/2008 8:52:43 PM

Kinbakudayo

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Master K did a live interview on the Graydancer podcast.

It might be worth a listen. It has a lot of good detail on the art ...

http://www.ropecast.net/

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RE: Shibari - 4/11/2008 11:40:22 PM

IronBear

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I coinsider myself a rookie as far as shibari and related matters goes, but I posit that one of the differences in learning from a master if japan and from one here is, like co much of the martial Arts taucht outside their native countries, what is missing is the philosophy and spiritual bonds which those taught by a Traditional Master who was aprenticed to another master in the country of origin. I've seen this with an awfull lot of top Martial Artists who still see it as a sport rather than a Combat Art and Disclipline as much as a way of life. As I have oft told students in the past when i was teaching, "We do not fight, we do combat". One is for the brute/thug and the other if for a warrior of honour. Sure both can and will kill efficiently but the means of killing and the finess used is like chalk and cheese. I was taught when looking at japanese bondage for restraining some miscreant, to use knots dishonours both the bound and binder. The real "Knot" is in the mind and little restraint is needed if you first master mind fucks. However using Japanese style bondate to create exquisit human packages showing their complete submission or their fear and pain is a painstaking art form to which few others forms of art creation using living materials have equalled.

Just my opinion, no more, no less.

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/11/2008 11:45:30 PM >

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RE: Shibari - 4/12/2008 12:45:50 AM

Lynnxz

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OP, my advice, and you can take it or leave it, is no not get too tied up with trying to figure out who is the best, what technique is the best, or if people think its "Tru Shibari" or not.

Do what you find enjoyable, and then perfect it later. There's plenty of time to argue about technique, rope type, and everything else later when you have time to waste. :D

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RE: Shibari - 4/12/2008 10:37:28 AM

Floggings4You

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I have to agree. Such definitions are always slippery, at best.

Is there an established 'Shibari' tradition? Are there traditional Japanese practices that are outside that 'Shibari tradition'? Are there practices that have been lost, which would have otherwise been understood as part of the 'Shibari tradition'?

And, the million dollar question, it seems to me, is that if one understands a majority of that 'established Shibari tradition', and then builds on those practices in a logical, consistent fashion, how would the result not be Shibari?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skully7000]thats when it all becomes a matter of semantics doesn't it? If a person learned Shibari in japan but is over in the states doing a Demo(which i have luckily seen a few times) is it not considered Shibari, just becuase its not done in Japan?
what about if that person who is a trained Shibari master Trains someone else here in the states... does that person then not get qualified in Shibari. or just Shibari Style?

******************
to the OP: also in some common practice if someone says "would you like me to do some Shibari On you" they are quite often refering to doing the asthetics Non binding or minimally binding rope work (i've heard it called Rope oragami as well) where the person is not restricted in anyway they just have some rope decoration, or a rope bra or something for a dom to grab onto.

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RE: Shibari - 4/12/2008 10:46:58 AM

Kinbakudayo

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Well yes some things are traceable if you know where to look. But to not rehash points better made by others the Master K interview on Grays podcast covers the issue well.

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RE: Shibari - 4/24/2008 3:13:23 PM

Esinem

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quote:

There are many different versions of shibari such as hojoutsu ..
Kinbaku (Japanese Rope Art) / Shibari (Japanese Rope Bondage)
you have net bondage= Karatas. Breast bondage which = shinju. Sukaranbo=Chassity bondage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardnRuff

There are many different versions of shibari such as hojoutsu ..
Kinbaku (Japanese Rope Art) / Shibari (Japanese Rope Bondage)
you have net bondage= Karatas. Breast bondage which = shinju. Sukaranbo=Chassity bondage.

I think you are a bit confused. Hojojutsu is a 400 year old martial art. There were a number of techniques for restraint, fighting and torture. Shibari, or more correctly, kinbaku is a modern erotic derivative. Maybe you mean 'kerada'? The latter two used as bondage terms are Western inventions.

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