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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:06:12 PM

luckydog1

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And yet again, what force other than natural law Governs events in the Universe? What could cause our brains to be anything more than a natural process operating according to natural law?

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:14:24 PM

Zensee

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Nothing. 100% natural with no additives, motives or reasons.

Z

We both gave definitions of determinism, as did a few others. There were definitions that spoke of deity and those that didn't. Changes matters not a jot. Determinism in all it's many splendor'd glories remains a fantasy.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 2/16/2008 9:19:06 PM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:22:48 PM

luckydog1

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Exactly.... no will, no independant thoughts..... determinism. Everything happens according to natural law, no deviation, even the thoughts in our heads. Not a proof of the Divine in any way. Just an observation, that as Aswad noted, doesn't matter, because even in an Athiestic universe, we have the appearance of free will, os it's best to act as if we do... In no way was I giving any motive to the natural law. I was arguing that in an Athiestic society it couldn't have motive or intent or will, nor can any of its sub parts. That was someonelse's idea that beings from other planes or Multiverses had motives, in setting the initial conditions of our universe.

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:27:46 PM

luckydog1

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Edited your post for content, how lame.

nope, you were defining Chrsitian Predestination (and trying to change the subject), which is a very different animal than my original comment.

Its ok you can can only give silly answers, that's the only thing you can do, at this point.

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:41:42 PM

Zensee

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There is no reason that individual will is not supported by natural law. Ditto independent thinking. Who ever said they weren't? They are products of our organic and energetic existence.

Has that been your secret thesis all along? That is a completely groundless assertion. The fixation on there being a purpose to the universe is the human ego seeking reassurance.

I have a feeling you are leading this discussion to the erroneous conclusion that if an atheist admits to a deterministic universe then that will prove the existence of god because we we do have free will and thus the determinist absurdity of atheist thought is once and for all disproved.

Good luck finding a modern theist who believes in determinism let alone an atheist who does.

Z.

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:47:59 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Edited your post for content, how lame.

nope, you were defining Chrsitian Predestination (and trying to change the subject), which is a very different animal than my original comment.

Its ok you can can only give silly answers, that's the only thing you can do, at this point.

Predterminism and predestination are alternate terms for the same belief, as was clearly established in some of the definitions tendered many pages ago. This is what I mean by intellectual dishonesty - using words to hide meaning, obscure intent and create confusion.

You moved the goal posts again. This game has been called due to bullshit.

Z.

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:51:45 PM

luckydog1

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Damn Zen, you must be scared I some huge gotcha..... I don't. Every honest athiest will admit determinism. Organic matter and energy behave according to natural laws, in every aspect. Including the output of our brains. Unless you mean "energetic existance" to mean some sort of soul. Would you like to define "energetic existance" so that I do not misunderstand you?

Try ignoring your feelings and honestly use logic here, instead of what you are doing.

What could make the output of your brain, other than the result of natural law?

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 9:53:10 PM

luckydog1

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no Zen, quoting yourself is way lame. You saying that is what I meant, does not make it so in any way. I have not moved the Goal posts at all.

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RE: Astrology - 2/16/2008 11:40:06 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Edited your post for content, how lame.

nope, you were defining Chrsitian Predestination (and trying to change the subject), which is a very different animal than my original comment.

Its ok you can can only give silly answers, that's the only thing you can do, at this point.

Predterminism and predestination are alternate terms for the same belief, as was clearly established in some of the definitions tendered many pages ago. This is what I mean by intellectual dishonesty - using words to hide meaning, obscure intent and create confusion.

You moved the goal posts again. This game has been called due to bullshit.

Z.

yup I was nearly tempted to respond to this myself and after reading the last few pages sort of threw my hands up in the air like where do you start in this mess.

SSDD, same shit different day. Lucky hangs a label, all else is a lie, then proceeds to pound the square peg in the round hole. When that doesnt work, then move to a triangle peg, and when that doesnt work then a hex peg and so forth and so on.

Good call.

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