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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 2:42:15 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Dave Parton's version of Stevie Wonder's Isn't She Lovely was a massive hit but to say it was better would be insupportable.

Please tell me that Jim McBride's Breathless and Scorcese's Cape Fear, while both creditable covers, are no match for the originals.  Without Godard, where does Tarantino get a look-in?  This is mass madness, you madmen!

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 3:28:32 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Remakes are never better.

Le Liasons Dangerouses = Dangerous Liasons

Le Retour de Martin Guerre  = Sommersby

Baise Moi = Thelma and Louise

Un indien dans la ville = Jungle2Jungle

Diabolique = Diabolique

Plein Soliel = The Talented Mr Riply

La Jettee/Sans Soliel = 12 Monkeys

La Femme Nikita = The Point Of No Return

A Boute de Souffle = Breathless

La Cage aux Folles = The Bird Cage

Cousin, Cousine = Cousins

Trois hommes et un couffin  = Three Men And A Baby

I could go on, there are many many more, especially if one starts listing Japanese film. All the Hollywood remakes are anemic, lightweight and avoid the darkside of issues and sell out by relying on a feel good and/or comfortable conclusion. I assume this is because Hollywood goes for profit and goes for the lowest common denominator to increase revenue. However, people miss out on so much by not seeing the original.

Whatever happened to films like The Graduate, Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider etc? Too much of a critique of America? Too much looking in the mirror? Great films though and should never be remade.


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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 4:33:17 AM   
MadameMarque


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Status: offline 		Now, I don't mean to disrespect Godard.  I know he was considered innovative, and to tell the truth, I don't know my film history or Godard's work well enough to speak on his art.
 
I only say, on the topic of remakes, that I appreciated the latter version of Breathless, which still used the story by Truffaut and the screenplay by Godard.
 
I wasn't aware that Tarantino owes a lot to Godard.  What I have always noticed, and have been surprised no one ever mentions it, is that Tarantino's writing substantially resembles Harold Pinter's.
 
 

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 5:07:09 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Hmm... not sure about the Pinter thing.  If you mean scenes which don't seem to be about anything, just small talk, what you're actually missing is that that is an innovation of the French nouvelle vague - which influenced Pinter. Godard was perhaps their leading light, hence an indirect link to Tarantino can be found there.  I have always considered Quentin a film obsessive and don't know how likely that he saw many Pinter productions.

Today's cinema with jump cuts, smash cuts, utilisation of lightweight cameras, use of non-actors, sets which look like the real world not the back-lot, hand-held shots, ellipsis, flashbacks and forwards it all comes through the French new wave. Even the themes and the sorts of things people would make a film out of, the whole approach, changed because of it. Watch some Truffaut, some Godard and then watch Bonnie and Clyde and you'll see what I mean. Or even in Natural Born Killers, the influence is pretty distinct still today even after lots of evolution.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 5:30:22 AM   
MadameMarque


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Hmm... not sure about the Pinter thing.  If you mean scenes which don't seem to be about anything, just small talk, what you're actually missing is that that is an innovation of the French nouvelle vague - which influenced Pinter. Godard was perhaps their leading light, hence an indirect link to Tarantino can be found there.  I have always considered Quentin a film obsessive and don't know how likely that he saw many Pinter productions.

Today's cinema with jump cuts, smash cuts, utilisation of lightweight cameras, use of non-actors, sets which look like the real world not the back-lot, hand-held shots, ellipsis, flashbacks and forwards it all comes through the French new wave. Even the themes and the sorts of things people would make a film out of, the whole approach, changed because of it. Watch some Truffaut, some Godard and then watch Bonnie and Clyde and you'll see what I mean. Or even in Natural Born Killers, the influence is pretty distinct still today even after lots of evolution.


They used to show some of Pinter's movies and plays on film, on television.  That's where I first ran into them.
 
In any case, I wasn't suggesting that Tarentino was actually imitating Pinter, whether he was ever purposely or unconsciously influenced by him, only that their writing has marked similarities.
 
Interesting about the innovations of the French New Wave.
 
 

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 5:32:53 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Today's cinema with jump cuts, smash cuts, utilisation of lightweight cameras, use of non-actors, sets which look like the real world not the back-lot, hand-held shots, ellipsis, flashbacks and forwards it all comes through the French new wave. Even the themes and the sorts of things people would make a film out of, the whole approach, changed because of it. Watch some Truffaut, some Godard and then watch Bonnie and Clyde and you'll see what I mean. Or even in Natural Born Killers, the influence is pretty distinct still today even after lots of evolution.


There is no doubt about it, the French have been the most innovative nation in the art of film and it didn't start with the New Wave but goes all the way back to the beginning of film making.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 6:24:06 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Speaking of Pinter, have you seen The Servant?  If not, do try and catch it.  Now that is a film that could be a really amazing remake.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 6:43:58 AM   
MadameMarque


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Status: offline 		Oh, The Servant stars one of my favourite actors, ever - Dirk Bogarde.  You know how it is that a certain actor speaks to you so clearly?  He could bring you an experience with an expression on his face.  I haven't watched him in anything for a long time.
 
The Servant is a fine film.  It's one of those that's heavy-hearted enough, I haven't gone back to it in a long while.
 
 
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We think only of revenge.
 
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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 12:40:58 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

What about loose remakes?  The Big Lebowski is a remake of The Big Sleep - albeit with elements of the Maltese Falcon thrown in. You don't necessarily see Sam Spade in The Dude but with the right perspective, it becomes clear that the idea of a labyrinthine crime story in LA takes on a certain logic which derives from the earlier work.


...excellent point. i'd argue that in bwteen my two classes of films, (narrative driven and character driven), can occur a kind of grey area where the narrative takes on aspects of character. Consider the ol' cliche, "boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back", that formula has much the same function as this section from Hamlet, "'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother,
Nor customary suits of solemn black,
Nor windy suspiration of forced breath,
No, nor the fruitful river in the eye,
Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage,
Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief,
That can denote me truly"
 
......the very story of Hamlet is part of the character of Hamlet.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 1:00:17 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I take your point but I'd contend that in teh best films, a good plot is actually a function of character and vice versa.  The inner working s of the character are revealed through their choices and that determines the plot. Hamlet's multi-layered persona chimes with us because we are multi-layered. As he moves through his emotions and resolves his impulses into action, the plot is shaped. Btw, Hamlet was an adaptation of an earlier play.  Shakespeare used that as he used the sources of the history plays, as a basis to show his own genius. There's a saying about this, something like "An artist adapts, a genius improves" and it sums it up for me.

meatcleaver - great examples, although La Femme Nikita was remade as Nikita (Bridget Fonda) and Thelma and Louise predates Baise Moi.  The Vanishing is another of that ilk of terrible Hollywood versions.  French thrillers are going through a real purple patch, though as Le Serpent demonstrates - one of my favourite films in the last few months. Incidentally with a fantastic shibari sequence with Olga Kurylenko.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 1:20:25 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

meatcleaver - great examples, although La Femme Nikita was remade as Nikita (Bridget Fonda) and Thelma and Louise predates Baise Moi. 


My mistake, I assumed because they were both based on the French book Bais Moi, Bais Moi would have been made first and Thelma and Louise would have been based on the film Bais Moi.

Yep. I don't know what I was thinking to get Nikita wrong but there it is.

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 1:22:48 PM   
AquaticSub


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Depends on the remake. I enjoy the remake of "The Fog". It told a different sort of story but was quite good. I don't know if I'd call it better but I think I enjoyed it more because of it included an element of romance beyond the grave.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 2/18/2008 1:24:31 PM >

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/18/2008 9:01:51 PM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

..i think there are two sorts of remakes to consider here. The first sort would include films like 'The Shining', 'Casablanca', 'The Wicker Man', and, say, 'Love Story'.

Let's call them films that basically function because of their narrative.

The second sort of films are things like 'Superman',  'Dracula', 'Jack the Ripper', or 'Frankenstein'.

These are movies that depend on our understanding certain things about the central character before we even see the movie. These are movies about culturally iconic characters rather than being based on their story per se.

Therefore, the second type of movie remakes relatively well. Because they are essentially the same sort of generational cultural reinvention that the theatre has done to Shakespeare for centuries. The first type is much harder to remake....they have to tread an extraordinarily thin line between multiple peoples with expectations.

(edited for clarity)


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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 12:26:36 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I take your point but I'd contend that in teh best films, a good plot is actually a function of character and vice versa. 


...agreed, this is what i mean by the gray area between narrative and character....

quote:

The inner working s of the character are revealed through their choices and that determines the plot. Hamlet's multi-layered persona chimes with us because we are multi-layered.


...straight from the text book........

quote:

 As he moves through his emotions and resolves his impulses into action, the plot is shaped.


...yup, this is the mechanism that binds character and narrative.....

quote:

 Btw, Hamlet was an adaptation of an earlier play.


...i'm very aware of that. The Hamlet quote i used earlier is often given as evidence that Shakespeare was playing to the popularity of the earlier play. As his Hamlet was the first original show done in his new theatre after they had all been shut down for a while due to plague, it had to be a hit. Using an old favourite as template maximised his chances.

quote:

 Shakespeare used that as he used the sources of the history plays, as a basis to show his own genius. There's a saying about this, something like "An artist adapts, a genius improves" and it sums it up for me.


.....i tend to agree.......but it ought to have a third clause.....'a hack just copies'.....

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 5:36:48 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Someday someone will come up with a fourth clause about what critics do.

Great bit of history about Hamlet by the way. I didn't know that background about the plague, in fact I'm not that up on the social context of much of Shakespeare's work. 

I agree though, you're much closer with your new third category, or "grey area".  A lot of people take ages to get the distinction between character and plot and fall into the trap of separating them when a sound plot is really only an enquiry into inner character. 

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 7:05:15 AM   
mhawk


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Status: offline 		i just really think it depends on the movie in particular.

for example back in the days of pure black and white films there was a movie called "The Haunting" (not to be confused with House on Haunted Hill). in the 90's they re did "The Haunting". 

now the origional.i like alot because there were little special efects.it was more of a scare tactict basis and there was a good story line. in the remake,they were able to add a new dimension with the f/x and broaddened the stroyline. both were decent films.


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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 7:32:24 AM   
verysweet


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Status: offline 		I've not read all the posts, but here's my two cents.

I'm probably one of the few people I know who prefer "Love Affair" with Warren Beatty and Annette Bening over the original:  "An Affair to Remember" with Cary Grant and Deborah Kerr.  There is just something about their on-screen chemistry that makes the later version way more enjoyable and romantic.   I can do without "Sleepless in Seattle", however.

Everything old is new again, right?  In all artforms:  cinema, stage, fashion, visual arts.  Not sure if it's due to a lack of creativity or because seemingly everything comes full circle.









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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 7:32:47 AM   
samboct


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On this side of the pond, you didn't get Nikita wrong- I just checked imdb and it agrees with us- the Hollywood version of La Femme Nikita was Point of No Return.  A possible reason for the name change- think Little Nikita was out at the same time.

However, having just seen A Bout de Souffle a few weeks ago, it strikes me as one of those films that the cognescenti rave over that make many of us go huh?  (Like Citizen Kane.)  From my perspective- Truffaut updated a Cagney movie with an existential French twist.  Mind you, I don't think Breathless was wonderful either.  And I have yet to meet a film critic that gets 2001.

Sam

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/19/2008 9:09:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Meatcleaver

However, having just seen A Bout de Souffle a few weeks ago, it strikes me as one of those films that the cognescenti rave over that make many of us go huh?  (Like Citizen Kane.)  From my perspective- Truffaut updated a Cagney movie with an existential French twist.  Mind you, I don't think Breathless was wonderful either.  And I have yet to meet a film critic that gets 2001.

Sam


I think the genius of A Bout de Soufle is in the technique and the style of the film, the cutting, the camera angles and the clipped scenes. Trauffaut must have been influenced, his ideas weren't created in a vacuum so you could be right about the Cagney film. The thirties and fourties was a great time for American cinema and for Truffaut looking back at them would have been like us now looking back at the eighties

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RE: Old Movie Remakes. Are they Better? - 2/21/2008 12:30:47 PM   
Feric


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Status: offline 		I almost never see remakes, because the results are nearly always unfortunate. That Hollywood continues to do so is, IMHO, a sign of lack of imagination or daring. And now I hear that Revenge of the Nerds is being remade! As Joe Bob Briggs says, 97 on the Vomit Meter!



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