RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 7:51:48 AM)

Consumerism is a good thing - it means that more product is sold, building up businesses and growing employment and generating wealth, some of which is then spent on consumer goods; a virtuous circle whereby we all benefit.

Except that the product which is being sold is not made here and whilst the importer businesses grow, they have little or no requirement to grow employment here and at the same time facilitate the export of wealth to the places where the product is made. We then find ourselves in a situation where we lack the wealth to buy the consumer products - but luckily we have banks ready and willing to provide credit with which to buy.

Except that the credit extended by the banks is now being found to be based on a house of cards which they engineered - a house whose foundations are shaking violently as we speak and which is due to fall at any moment. The only saving grace is that the money the banks lent us was funded to great extent from the wealth we transferred to other countries through importing and marketing their product here. Thus our ultimate creditors are those who have a vested interest in not foreclosing but in trying to maintain the situation - keep us buying or at the least to allow us some stay of execution so that we might be able to buy again in future.

And this I would guess is a source of at least one aspect of the problem. Whilst most people are pretty stupid, theyre not so stupid as to not be able to understand that our governments have little power or influence over things - because we are all so interdependent as countries that nothing radical can be done which would threaten the situation. We are caught in a trap whereby we must play the game set globally with little regard for the comparatively tiny domestic issues which government can affect. Thus, there is (in the UK at least) little difference between the political parties in the mainstream because they have all had to adjust their ideologies to meet the requirements of a global economy, and this has not only become apparent to the electorate who are in this way turned off participation for it makes little difference who wins, but also the electorate are aware of what really determines things.

The irony is that it is our model of capitalism - which tempered with socialist interventions has brought us to be wealthy, that has been turned around against us, by our own capitalists operating the capitalist system with little foresight as to how it will end - with the money they think they have made being rendered worthless.

But, its about more than that - its about aspirations and the general dumbing down we have experienced in education and public life. Its about the foolish notion that everyone can work in service industries in front a phone and a PC if only they are trained to do so, based on the original foolish notion that everyone is equal, when its plain we are all different with special attributes and interests which have been marginalised in the rush towards realising the next capitalist bubble. If we cannot achieve in the path which the whole universe urges us to follow then we must achieve in the one way accessible, by having the plasma screen TV, the BMW and the mock Tudor house and the other trinkets of success which our the currency thereof in our economies and societies - and yet we remain unhappy because we know these things are displacements for our real fulfilment.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:06:43 AM)

quote:

LadyE Whilst most people are pretty stupid,

Are you in a bad mood? lol Nice post tho'



Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:30:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Please change the record and listen to one that plays some facts.

quote:


no moral criticism intended
just whittlin' and wonderin' if these stats are in any way connected to child poverty
The large growth in the proportion of lone-parent families (from 8 per cent of families in 1971 to over a quarter of families [27 percent] in 2002) has mainly been among families headed by a lone mother
 



I assume this figure includes divorced mothers. Including those whose former spouses refuse to pay the alimony awarded.

And the period in time you've described also saw a phenomenal increase in the awareness of spousal abuse and the creation of support facilities for abused women.

Furthermore, career opportunities for women have improved since '71.

The issue is not as simple as there being more single mothers.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:37:24 AM)

Considering only the economics...single parenthood  most certainly is  major contributing factor to child poverty.



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:45:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Considering only the economics...single parenthood  most certainly is  major contributing factor to child poverty.


I'm sorry Seeks - but I believe this to be the same angle peddled by the Tories for a long while; blaming single mothers for the problems of an economy and society for which they know the blame lies elsewhere - yet such an accusation plays well with their "life was so much better in 1955 when we all went to church" audience.

Single parent families are a symptom of the root problem, and whilst they may then produce other symptoms in turn, we cannot effect a cure without tackling the root cause.

E



Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:45:22 AM)

The problem is consumerism expects an ever increasing number of things produced, year after year, forever.

However, this expectation necessitates an assumption that population will continue to grow, that pollution will continue to grow, that the consumption of raw materials will continue to grow ... forever.

And we know as long as we are confined to one planet, this is unsustainable.



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:48:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

The problem is consumerism expects an ever increasing number of things produced, year after year, forever.

However, this expectation necessitates an assumption that population will continue to grow, that pollution will continue to grow, that the consumption of raw materials will continue to grow ... forever.

And we know as long as we are confined to one planet, this is unsustainable.


Absolutely. And this is one of the problems which we have to tackle - its not a problem thats come up before, in that we have never had so many people on the planet and so many people able to consume at the rate we do.

How do we create wealth sufficient to provide for the needs of all, with limited resources?

How indeed do we provide the bare necessities of life to all, with limited resources?

E



Sinergy -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:51:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

And the period in time you've described also saw a phenomenal increase in the awareness of spousal abuse



Well, there is some disagreement over whether the statistical increase is due to an increase in the amount of spousal abuse, or simply an increase in the amount of reported spousal abuse.  I tend to think it is the latter, but then I am jaded and cynical about the topic, and think partner abuse is something that has always been around.

quote:



Furthermore, career opportunities for women have improved since '71.



Yes and no.  Part of the problem is that with the end of World War 2 and Rosy The Riveter not wanting to return to the home, the growth of the two income family increased the amount of wealth in the system.  In true supply and demand fashion, the price of things like houses doubled since there was twice as much money to pay for it.

The 1970s rolled around, the divorce rate skyrocketted, and men (typically, not universally) left their wives and children to fend for themselves.  The problem is that costs in our society presumed a two wage earner household, and women (often with children) were forced to try to survive in it.

Sinergy



Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:53:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Single parent families are a symptom of the root problem



That got my attention ... considering I can think of several causes for there being single parent families, none of the reasons being exclusive, mind you.

Immaturity, irresponsibility, and abuse seem obvious.

It might be argued that these are the result of a common root problem: the lack of a nurturing value system.

Was that what you had in mind?



Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 8:56:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

How do we create wealth sufficient to provide for the needs of all, with limited resources?

How indeed do we provide the bare necessities of life to all, with limited resources?



Population control.

But good luck selling it.



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 9:06:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed
It might be argued that these are the result of a common root problem: the lack of a nurturing value system.

Was that what you had in mind?


I must say I dont know. But I am sure that I can discern that which is symptomatic of whatever is the root cause.

What I observe though is a rapidly changing socio-economic situation and a deterioration in a sense of common identity and purpose that unites us as communities, societies and nations.

Its a good thing that we are these days each able to define ourselves as individuals far more than at any other time in history - and not be strait-jacketed by societal/religious limitations into uniformity, but we seem to have taken that too far, and the result is that we have lost that which formerly bound us together too. Perhaps it might be surmised by your phrase - a lack of a nurturing value system?

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 9:20:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

How do we create wealth sufficient to provide for the needs of all, with limited resources?

How indeed do we provide the bare necessities of life to all, with limited resources?



Population control.

But good luck selling it.


Indeed.

Ultimately we have only a few paths down which we can go.

One is perhaps the ultimate fulfilment of radical left wing ideology; to ration resources centrally according to need, alongside strict population controls worldwide, such that we can feed and water everyone and provide a common standard of living worldwide for all which is sustainable. This though would never work in practice and would be objected to by those who run and profit from the show as it is, as well as by we in the west who would not countenance the lower standard of living which would be necessary for us.

Another is perhaps the ultimate fulfilment of radical right wing ideology; to maintain the situation we have, and develop an ideology whereby some are entitled to more whilst others must have less and others must perish. This way too, we ensure sustainability but we must engineer a system of resource management whereby those who are entitled receive what they want, those who must have less get what they need and the others get nothing. But more importantly we must produce the all important ideology which says that some humans are worth more and deserve more than others. We have a system like this to some extent already in the financial system and capitalist market economy - but the new system must go further and remove from our minds the very notion that the suffering of those deemed disposable is anything but right. Again, this would never work out because those of us who may be deemed disposable would not agree to it, especially against the background of the heritage of nearly two hundred years whereby we have struggled to assert rights and equal value for all human life.

To be honest? Of these two dire solutions I really, genuinely am not sure which is preferable - but I fear that or the other will become necessary. The one side of me says the first solution is better. The other side of me says why should all that my family and people has struggled to achieve for themselves be given up? Yet I would find it extremely difficult to subscribe to the necessary mindset of the second solution.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 10:37:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Considering only the economics...single parenthood  most certainly is  major contributing factor to child poverty.

I'm sorry Seeks - but I believe this to be the same angle peddled by the Tories for a long while; blaming single mothers for the problems of an economy and society .........

Its still true whoever peddled it.
Some women become single mothers due to  fecklessness , too young and/or they just dont care much, some by serious misfortune,  her partner dies and some due to male irresponsibility. He does a runner.

Whatever the cause diminishing living standards are the certain consequence.
This is not a malevolent society at work. Is it ?



Politesub53 -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 10:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Considering only the economics...single parenthood  most certainly is  major contributing factor to child poverty.


I'm sorry Seeks - but I believe this to be the same angle peddled by the Tories for a long while; blaming single mothers for the problems of an economy and society for which they know the blame lies elsewhere


Its not just the Tories, Labour have played the same game when it suited them.  You have completely missed Seeks very valid point, made earlier in the thread. Child poverty has increased due to the number of one parent families and absent fathers. There is no point denying this isnt part of the reason, even if its not the only reason. Seeks didnt say single mothers are the reason for the economy being in the state its in.






LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:03:58 AM)

It is a red herring when raised by politicians to move the debate away from their failings, and it is a red herring here too with the same potential for misdirection.

And it is not the link which is doubted - it is the allusion which is drawn.

E



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:14:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Another is perhaps the ultimate fulfilment of radical right wing ideology; to maintain the situation we have, and develop an ideology whereby some are entitled to more whilst others must have less and others must perish.


Just a point of clarification here: this already takes place. It's not a road we can choose, we are on that road right now.

Elsewhere, people die so that we may live as we do.

Fact.

P.S. LadyEllen, I am finding your comments spot on of late. And I guess I'm surprised because I wouldn't have thought we agreed this much politically. This isn't really a compliment, nor is it the backhanded compliment it may seem.

[;)]





RealityLicks -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:20:13 AM)

She's keeping better company perhaps?

The reason lone parents feature so prominently in  these discussions is that there are lots of stats available which all lend themselves to a variety of conclusions.  What bothers me is that rightwingers always start off talking about the demise of the nuclear family in economic terms and end up talking about it in terms of morality.



Politesub53 -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:28:29 AM)

Lady Ellen that still doesnt address the point Seeks was making. Part of the reason there is more child poverty is that there are more lone parents. With some fathers not taking their resonsibilities seriously.

Another reason is the huge rise in underage mums in the UK,  Europes highest as i recall. Personally i dont see child poverty being as bad as it was in the 50s. Maybe NG has a point and consumerism is part of the reason, as many parents go without to get the latest two, or designer footwear for christmas ectetra.



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:30:22 AM)

Oh SMC - its nice that we agree on some things, and even nicer that despite deriving our views from opposite ends of the spectrum (I believe) we can agree.

And I agree, we are on Option Two right now. All thats missing is the ideology which says its right for (say) Africans to die - and indeed, closer to home that its OK for the disabled to be put down - so that we "the Uebermenschen" have the resources we want. At present (thank goodness) we are not of a mind to contemplate genocide and euthanasia so that we may continue with our ways - yet I fear that we may be reaching a juncture, in the face of unsustainable consumption and limited resources, where we must make difficult choices - and given our heritage of an economy based on selfish accumulation, I fancy that Option Two may become more attractive than expecting us to give up our standard of consumption.

We can of course be high minded about this and state with as much unequivocation as we can muster, that we would not countenance genocide and euthanasia so that we have water enough to waste, food enough to waste and enough of every other resource to waste as we do now. But we all know that as humans, we will do whatever it takes to make sure we and our children get the best and are protected from anything which threatens that access.

The ultimate problem with both Option One and Option Two though, is that both solutions require authoritarian approaches with the force available and willing to be used ruthlessly to ensure compliance. This clearly means that ultimately we cannot have a democracy at all when we reach that juncture where we must make difficult choices.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/16/2008 11:38:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady Ellen that still doesnt address the point Seeks was making. Part of the reason there is more child poverty is that there are more lone parents. With some fathers not taking their resonsibilities seriously.

Another reason is the huge rise in underage mums in the UK,  Europes highest as i recall. Personally i dont see child poverty being as bad as it was in the 50s. Maybe NG has a point and consumerism is part of the reason, as many parents go without to get the latest two, or designer footwear for christmas ectetra.


Again, I repeat that these (single parent families, lack of interest in democracy and rampant consumerism) are symptoms, not original causes. They may produce secondary symptoms, but if we are to solve our situation the solution does not lie in debating the symptoms but in seeking the original causes and solving them.

Debating the symptoms and secondary symptoms is a red herring promoted by those with a vested interest in misleading the debate away from discovering original causes.

Yes, Seeks point is true. But it adds nothing to the debate and leads us down the misleading and fruitless path of finding scapegoats for our situation. Single mothers this week, ethnic minorities next and Islam whenever there's a need for something really distracting.

A few posts up are my thoughts on original causes; maybe not right, but my view is that unless we identity original causes and thence seek solutions for them, then this debate is nothing more than impotent bemoaning the state of the world.

E



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