RE: Capitalism and Consumerism......

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Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 3:47:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The best solution economically speaking is to maximise peoples freedom with the spur that failure will bring about a lowered living standard. Care to explain that to Enron's employees? Or those who are unemployed because production was moved to cheaper labour markets in third-world countries? Can anyone survive in the west on third-world wages? How is labour in North America to compete with labour in third-world nations, especially when those nations can provide ample numbers of educated workers, such as in India? Regardless of how hard the average worker works, global economics demands a reduction in the standard of living so as to compete with third-world labour. In other words, you've just lost your incentive to work.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 4:05:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed I call this a "democratically elected dictatorship" because, in effect, the government has absolute power during its time in office. An "elected dictatorship" is a contradiction in terms. The government does not hold absolute power as the people hold the power to replace them via the ballot box. You seem to think a dictator cannot be elected to the post. I was unaware this was impossible. Nonetheless, a majority government in a parliamentary system can pass whatever legislation it wants and not be under the control of anyone, including the electorate. Even if replaced by another party in the next election, that is no assurance that legislation passed will be over-turned. In Canada, not even the courts can interfere with legislation if the "Notwithstanding Clause" is used, which prevents any court from ruling on the constitutionality of a law. Thus women could be denied the vote, jews could be forced into concentration camps, blacks could be enslaved. It is, literally, limitless power. With the Notwithstanding Clause elections could be suspended indefinitely. Hitler transformed a democracy into a dictatorship with remarkable ease, and he did it legally. No, my friend, we may be able to change the faces, but we have no control over the power of government.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 4:21:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed Okay, but there has never been a form of government that tolerated ideals that would lead to its dissolution. Not through force, granted, but certainly through democratic means. Ever hear of Joe McCarthy? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed I disagree. Their shared political goal is anything that facilitates consumerism: lower taxes, reduced regulation, whatever reduces prices and increases buying power. Consumerism in its current state is bordering on mindless; this is exemplified by patterns of products being disposed of prior to use, e.g. the level of food wasted in this country. This is underpinned by advertising that is clearly distorting supply and demand; false needs are being created. In contrast to this, Capitalism is governed by production and aims to provide for a genuine need in society. That is, perhaps, the most altruistic description of capitalism I've ever seen. I would not be so charitable ;-) quote: The critique of Consumerism that I'm offering here, and one that is distinct from Capitalism, is that advertising is leading people down a path of reducing their lives to a chase for items; this rampant Consumerism goes far beyond wealth creation to generate prosperity. While Consumerism is political in the sense its a form of economic policy, consumers are in no way interested in the essence of politics and that is by design: chasing items is a very narrow version of the essence of politics. "Capitalism has been defined by some as a philosophy just as Communism has by communists. It is described by them as a philosophy of personal attainment and achievement. It stresses the accumulation of wealth or Capital by individuals. Wealth, in Capitalist terminology, is defined as anything which an individual can personally attain. A good example of wealth in Capitalist terminology that is not usually considered wealth by others is spiritual fulfillment. Capitalists claim that, as it can be attained by an individual human and can be given to others or kept by the individual, it is wealth. Capitalists regard this attainment of wealth as the main driving force behind humanity. Capitalists claim that this driving force continues to push humanity forward. Capitalists regard advancement as one of the ultimate goals of humanity as a whole. Arguably as individuals advance themselves, they advance the rest of society with them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Capitalist_Philosophy In what way does this conflict with Consumerism, which is the "accumulation of wealth" in the form of possessions?

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 4:51:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I see a way 'round it: responsible consumption. Providing the information in order to enable an informed choice would be useful. The alternative argument is lost in a plethora of campaigns, advertisements and television programmes celebrating the consumer lifestyle. NG, consumerism isn't relying on stupidity. Consumerism is just an intensification of that most prehistoric need to provide. Quite simply (and forgive the stereotype), the man who can provide the most is the best choice for a mate. Consumption demonstrates an ability to provide. It is also applies to families (good parents provide for their kids). Your argument seems to be that you have in mind a level of provision beyond which is wasteful and distracting from more important issues. I'm sure to some extent most of us do. It's called "gluttony" ;-) What I cannot do is detach it from the concept of "capitalism". As soon as I say "I have some apples for sale" I am advertising. That business advertising has perfected itself so well that it invokes knee-jerk responses in the audience in no way changes the fact it is embedded within the principals of capitalism. It is advertising capitalist messages which, when taken in toto, equates to: "I will be better off if I give all my money to business in exchange for the items they give me". And with two or three generations of TV watchers, that message has sunk in. It is part of the psychology of society. We must consume to provide for ourselves and our families and the jobs of our neighbours who in turn provide for our jobs ... consumption has become the modus vivendi of society: we live to work and work to live. More than a couple of ladies have been turned off by the simplicity of my life and my rejection of consumerism.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:07:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Actually individual responsibility is something that many people avoid and just look to a nanny state to take care of them. I refer to it as slave morality, following a marxist ideal. And capitalism does not exploit "a slave morality"?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:09:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The best solution economically speaking is to maximise peoples freedom with the spur that failure will bring about a lowered living standard. quote: Loveiasall Care to explain that to Enron's employees? Maximising economic opportunity does not equate to allowing crooks and spivs to run major, usually financial, corporations. quote: Or those who are unemployed because production was moved to cheaper labour markets in third-world countries? Given the imbalanced economic development of the world this problem will exist under any system that allowed international transfer of resources. So the solution appears to be.... limit in some way transfer of resources or wait because in theory the problem should balance out as 2nd world nations develop. The waiting game will undoubtedly result in much lower standards of living for many in the West. Oddly enough it might be a test of the premise of this thread , consumerism is bad, because it seems certain that the consumption of the masses is going to decrease Many know it and are not happy about it. Those that dont know it are at the moment quite content.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:19:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The waiting game will undoubtedly result in much lower standards of living for many in the West. We are talking about the Western Democracies, correct? Are those bound up in Consumerism really likely to allow this to happen, when they can elect parties promising a nanny state, protectionism, etc? How much are the rich willing to pay for a police state as crime rises alongside poverty?

MollHackabout -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:50:35 AM)
quote: Consumerism in its current state is bordering on mindless; this is exemplified by patterns of products being disposed of prior to use, e.g. the level of food wasted in this country. This is underpinned by advertising that is clearly distorting supply and demand; false needs are being created. In contrast to this, Capitalism is governed by production and aims to provide for a genuine need in society. Food waste in the West is not a new phenomenon. We've been disposing of surplus food to satisfy principles of "scarcity", sometimes quite overtly by dumping it into the ocean, for what, at least a century? It's hard to say that such measures are about consumerism and not capitalism, particularly when in the United States, some farmers are paid not to produce in order to eliminate excess and maintain prices. Also, if we'd like to take anything Marx says seriously, Capitalism is governed by surplus and aims to create needs in society. It's not quite as altruistic as you might believe. quote: The critique of Consumerism that I'm offering here, and one that is distinct from Capitalism, is that advertising is leading people down a path of reducing their lives to a chase for items; this rampant Consumerism goes far beyond wealth creation to generate prosperity. While Consumerism is political in the sense its a form of economic policy, consumers are in no way interested in the essence of politics and that is by design: chasing items is a very narrow version of the essence of politics. Edited for misplaced quotes. What is different between the current mode of consumerism and the consumerism that was rebelled against by, say, Thomas Mun and Josiah Child in the mercantilist era?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 6:48:07 AM)
There will always be slave morality and master morality. The environment will depend upon whether individual attempts are hampered or not. The demands upon an individual to provide for those of the community, are increased in a socialistic government. This allows less room to expand and take personal accountability for your actions. When the balances are tipped more towards an open market (there is no such thing as free), then there is more room for the individual to succeed or fail. As I have stated before though, there are many things that need a socialistic approach to it, and some that need the capitalist approach to it. The more the state provides for an individual, the less they need to take responsibility for. It really is that simple. quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Actually individual responsibility is something that many people avoid and just look to a nanny state to take care of them. I refer to it as slave morality, following a marxist ideal. And capitalism does not exploit "a slave morality"?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 6:50:37 AM)
I felt this needed to be highlighted. There is no form of government that is truly altruistic. Government is just a form of management, with the aim to manage the population in such a way as to reduce desent. quote: ORIGINAL: MollHackabout Also, if we'd like to take anything Marx says seriously, Capitalism is governed by surplus and aims to create needs in society. It's not quite as altruistic as you might believe.

LadyEllen -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 7:01:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The more the state provides for an individual, the less they need to take responsibility for. It really is that simple. Yes and no; having spent a lot of time in the Czech Republic and spoken to a lot of people who recall the days under communist rule in one of the wealthier parts of that bloc it would seem that the theory rarely matched the reality when it came to the state providing all. One had to, even in that situation, take matters into one's own hands regularly because the state system was wide open to bribery, special influence and so on. Those who took matters into their own hands and used the system, would get ahead regardless of the theory by which the state was run - and this created inequalities which others then had to overcome through also taking matters into their own hands. This is the ultimate problem with Socialism with a capital S; that regardless of its theories, we are not all equal and we all wish to improve our situations and the situations of our families, and will find whatever means are available to do so. This is not to decry socialism in itself of course - it is a very valuable means of ensuring a safety net and providing vital services in our societies from which all benefit - even those who never have call to use them. But socialism without the wealth generation made possible by capitalism - capitalism whose motive and effect is to improve the environment in which it operates, is equally as flawed as capitalism without the socialism to guarantee a civilised society. E

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 7:25:46 AM)
OrionTheWolf: It is really easy to assume that you are a diehard adherent to the works of Ayn Rand or some very similar idealogical huckster. Newsflash: most people realize that such a worldview is primarily reactionary and not at all constructive. They usually realize that before they are 20 years of age. So go shrug it off, Atlas. Then the rest of us can go back to not caring anyway... [8\|]

MollHackabout -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 7:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro OrionTheWolf: It is really easy to assume that you are a diehard adherent to the works of Ayn Rand or some very similar idealogical huckster. Newsflash: most people realize that such a worldview is primarily reactionary and not at all constructive. They usually realize that before they are 20 years of age. So go shrug it off, Atlas. Then the rest of us can go back to not caring anyway... [8\|] That was my thought, until he started going on about "master and slave morality." So I guess it's not Rand, but Nietzsche - which, again, most of us learn to discredit in our early 20's. Nietzsche's a pretty easy guy to love if you're in a privileged position (with respect to class, race, social reproduction, etc.) that you'd prefer not to acknowledge.

meatcleaver -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 2:22:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MollHackabout quote: Consumerism in its current state is bordering on mindless; this is exemplified by patterns of products being disposed of prior to use, e.g. the level of food wasted in this country. This is underpinned by advertising that is clearly distorting supply and demand; false needs are being created. In contrast to this, Capitalism is governed by production and aims to provide for a genuine need in society. Food waste in the West is not a new phenomenon. We've been disposing of surplus food to satisfy principles of "scarcity", sometimes quite overtly by dumping it into the ocean, for what, at least a century? It's hard to say that such measures are about consumerism and not capitalism, particularly when in the United States, some farmers are paid not to produce in order to eliminate excess and maintain prices. Also, if we'd like to take anything Marx says seriously, Capitalism is governed by surplus and aims to create needs in society. It's not quite as altruistic as you might believe. So so true. Capitalism is not altruistic at all and never has been. During the Irish famine, Ireland exported food. The capitalist laissez faire ideology in vogue at the time meant that giving food to the starving would interfer with the markets and make the famine worse. We are still governed by such mindless crap and many people still believe in such nonsense!

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:37:47 PM)
~FR~ So instead of attacking the arguement with debate, you attack the person making the comments. Typical of those that have a weak foundation for their arguement. Nietzsche had some good ideas, but so did Buddha, Socrates, and Plato. I am not a big follower of any of them, though I may share ideals with a few. Hell I even share a few ideals with some of the more sinister figures in history. Had to Google Ayn Rand to find out who she is. If you think I have lived a privileged life, then Werriam-Webster need to rewrite a definition. What does any of that have to do with the OP?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 5:42:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The more the state provides for an individual, the less they need to take responsibility for. It really is that simple. Yes and no; having spent a lot of time in the Czech Republic and spoken to a lot of people who recall the days under communist rule in one of the wealthier parts of that bloc it would seem that the theory rarely matched the reality when it came to the state providing all. The corruption of humans caused that, but it was a system that was easily corrupted with the power so centralized. quote: One had to, even in that situation, take matters into one's own hands regularly because the state system was wide open to bribery, special influence and so on. Those who took matters into their own hands and used the system, would get ahead regardless of the theory by which the state was run - and this created inequalities which others then had to overcome through also taking matters into their own hands. This is the ultimate problem with Socialism with a capital S; that regardless of its theories, we are not all equal and we all wish to improve our situations and the situations of our families, and will find whatever means are available to do so. I agree and why I prefer that individuals be responsible, and accountable for themselves as much as possible. Making the government servants of the people, is a lot more difficult if the government is providing everything for you. quote: This is not to decry socialism in itself of course - it is a very valuable means of ensuring a safety net and providing vital services in our societies from which all benefit - even those who never have call to use them. But socialism without the wealth generation made possible by capitalism - capitalism whose motive and effect is to improve the environment in which it operates, is equally as flawed as capitalism without the socialism to guarantee a civilised society. E This is exactly why that both are needed, especially in a republic. Not enough socialistic programs and you have infrastructure or defense. Too many socialistic programs and people stop feeling as much pressure to do more and be more.

MollHackabout -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/18/2008 6:45:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf ~FR~ So instead of attacking the arguement with debate, you attack the person making the comments. Typical of those that have a weak foundation for their arguement. Nietzsche had some good ideas, but so did Buddha, Socrates, and Plato. I am not a big follower of any of them, though I may share ideals with a few. Hell I even share a few ideals with some of the more sinister figures in history. Had to Google Ayn Rand to find out who she is. If you think I have lived a privileged life, then Werriam-Webster need to rewrite a definition. What does any of that have to do with the OP? You're making arguments for a neoliberal model of responsibilization, so yes, your invocation of Nietzsche's ideals are relevant, as they inform this epistemology. You understand individuals as economically motivated, which yes, seems to make sense under a capitalist model, but the problems with such an understanding have been highlighted by any number of prominent theorists, (Foucault, Wendy Brown, etc.) particularly insofar as this may not be relevant under other socio-political models. This isn't a critique of you, but rather your ideology. All that aside, though, if socialism encourages such stagnation among citizens, why is Sweden's per capita GDP higher than the United States'? Is fostering a sense of security and safety really that damaging to a nation's morale and work ethic?

meatcleaver -> RE: Capitalism and Consumerism...... (2/19/2008 2:37:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MollHackabout All that aside, though, if socialism encourages such stagnation among citizens, why is Sweden's per capita GDP higher than the United States'? Is fostering a sense of security and safety really that damaging to a nation's morale and work ethic? Ask him why the USA has the worst social mobility of all western countries, even worse than conservative Japan. Ask him why the mean education standard in America is one of the worst in the developed world, why the mean healthcare of Americans is worse than all other western countries. Why has the US more poverty and social problems than all other western countries? The problem that out and out capitalists have is that capitalism doesn't provide for everyone, it provides for a few, hence the rejection of capitalism in most western countries for a synthesis of capitalism and socialism. The more socialist a democratic country is, the better educated and more healthy the general population is. OCED. (I'm not including ex-Soviet block countries here)

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