Issues of Pride... (Full Version)

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sodsta -> Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:25:10 PM)

Sometimes I think I have a bit too much Pride - something I think I definitely inherited from my father. For example, I find it hard, when having an argument or debate (especially with my father, lol), to let the other person have the last word, and I get really embarrassed when apologising, even when I know I'm in the wrong.

This doesn't happen all the time, but enough for me to notice when I'm doing it.

I was just discussing this with a Dominant friend of mine, and the issue of begging came up.
Her: You're not really the begging type, are you?
Me: No... I think I have a lot of pride for a sub, which may possibly not be such a good thing, since I can get quite stubborn sometimes
Her: You just need to find Dommes who dig that

So, my question is really... are there any Dommes that "dig" that? Is it something you can have fun playing with? Like breaking down that pride and getting to what's underneath, or is it a totally undesirable quality? I understand that it's a fault, and it annoys me when I can feel myself getting stubborn like that. It's something I'd like to work past, because I'd like to feel that I was able to beg if a Domme required it of me... right now, though, I feel as if I'd just clam up and get ridiculously shy in that sort of situation.

Have any of you had experience with subs who had similar issues? How did you deal with it, and how did you get them to overcome it?



SunNMoon -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:37:23 PM)

Hi Sodsta,

I’d be fine with it. I like someone that can hold their end in a debate. Makes it more fun talk with them. The only problem I would see with it is if you had issues following her directions or submitting to simple requests. If the only time that you get really stubborn is when you are having a debate about a certain topic I wouldn’t see that as a problem personally. Actually I would see that as a positive.

I would have fun playing with it depending on how it came out. Then again I’m a person that likes to have fun with who I’m with. I don’t think things very serious.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:41:36 PM)

I'm not really the begging type either.  It just never comes out real because I can never really -mean- it.  It's just not how I'm wired.

DV's Fox



thetammyjo -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:46:42 PM)

I think there is a difference between pride and stubbornness.

Stubbornness is when you know you are in the wrong, to use your words, but refuse to admit it.

Pride is holding up your end of the argument. Positive pride would be doing that with solid evidence and lots of "I feel/think" statements; negative pride would be arguing in any way until you know you are wrong and admitting it.

The trick with all of this in a Ds relationship is that if you enter one then you have to uphold your end of the dynamic. If you've negotiated that the dominant decides when an argument ends, for example, then your part of that agreement is to curb your desire to have the last word and if you can't to suffer the penalty for failure.

Now of course most people don't negotiate such things so they just kind of fly by the seats of their pants in those situations.

Of course one way to deal with it is to not get into a dynamic with someone who you disagree strongly with or only disagree on minor matters. That happens from carefully selection of a partner.

Begging is difficult for everyone.

One way to deal with that is to try and get your dominant to be clear about what they mean by begging.

For me, it's a matter of letting down walls and going with the most deep feelings -- no talking down about self, no promises, just letting the most intense feelings out.



MistressVnus -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:51:04 PM)

quote:

Have any of you had experience with subs who had similar issues? How did you deal with it, and how did you get them to overcome it?


You really want to know?  Really?
I whip them until they cry.  Really sob, cry, and beg for mercy.  All male pride goes out the window when a Domina "makes" a man cry.  Especially when he says something prideful like.."I've had others try but they've never been able to break me or make me cry."
I just grin and ask them do they trust me.  And, if so, will they agree to let me have a go at it. (my singletail has never failed me yet)
Of course, this isn't done to put a notch in my belt.  It's done to serve the purpose I just stated.  Because, you see, once he is crying and begging for mercy, I take him down, hold him, kiss his tears away, and thank him for surrendering his tears.  Just a quick note that, often, the tears don't come until they are taken down and can relax enough to let them flow.  But I always know by the body language when they are there and I can let them down.
And when the tears begin,  I tell him how much that surrender turned me on (and it does) and that this is what I need from him.  Surrender.
Oh, btw, I always tell them what I'm going to do and make sure they are in agreement to this and that there is no "stop" code word.  And, of course, that male pride will agree becuase they've already stated they can't be broken.
I have never done this and it not be effective.  EVER.  It has made some of the most "prideful" men I've come across melt into the most extremely submissive subjects.
But, that is just me.
If they don't want to agree to my terms (the whipping), and they continue to be prideful and full of challenging power struggles, they can hit the road.  And, all this said, I'm interpreting your question to mean that you are having a difficult time adhering, obeying, and giving up the power struggles with your Mistress/Domina.




LadyHathor -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 1:54:44 PM)

I think you are getting pride and submission confused--
 
one can be proud in their submission and  it takes nothing from them--it is the act of submisson you haven't grasped---if you want to give of yourself, then your begging is to please her and what greater pride?
 
People need to stop thinking that submission is demeaning, demoralizing and huge attack on one's self esteem---far far from it---it also doesn't mean you turn into jello brain either--there is a time and a place for all things within the dynamic established.



sodsta -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 2:12:48 PM)

quote:

And, all this said, I'm interpreting your question to mean that you are having a difficult time adhering, obeying, and giving up the power struggles with your Mistress/Domina.


Not really. I don't have a Mistress at the moment, and I've had no troubles with my submission in the past. I don't think I have any issues with handing over power, and perhaps the begging issue has a lot to do with self-preservation? Like Shawn1066 said above, I don't know if I'm wired that way. A Dominant once asked me what I wanted, and I had SUCH a hard time getting it out. I stammered, and blushed, and found it hard to make eye contact... I'm not sure if that was pride or just me being incredibly shy... or both... but that's similar to the issues I feel I have with begging.

Perhaps my "pride" isn't actually the same thing as my issue of shyness... I'm not entirely sure. I just don't want whatever it is to get in the way of my submission and giving my Dominant what they want and need from me.

I hope that made sense...? lol



AAkasha -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 2:18:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sodsta

quote:

And, all this said, I'm interpreting your question to mean that you are having a difficult time adhering, obeying, and giving up the power struggles with your Mistress/Domina.


Not really. I don't have a Mistress at the moment, and I've had no troubles with my submission in the past. I don't think I have any issues with handing over power, and perhaps the begging issue has a lot to do with self-preservation? Like Shawn1066 said above, I don't know if I'm wired that way. A Dominant once asked me what I wanted, and I had SUCH a hard time getting it out. I stammered, and blushed, and found it hard to make eye contact... I'm not sure if that was pride or just me being incredibly shy... or both... but that's similar to the issues I feel I have with begging.

Perhaps my "pride" isn't actually the same thing as my issue of shyness... I'm not entirely sure. I just don't want whatever it is to get in the way of my submission and giving my Dominant what they want and need from me.

I hope that made sense...? lol


The way I see it, your vulnerability is authentic.  It's not an easy place to go.  That makes it all the more intense and special.   I think it's absolutely delicious.  I love being on the other side of that.

If your play so far has been more casual, your inability to beg, or to be truly vulnerable, is just a byproduct of the lack of intimacy or trust and mutual understanding.  But as you get closer to people and they start to get into your head more, and they start to know more what makes you vulnerable, it will be more and more common to get to those places.  That's been my experience. 

Nothing to worry about -- you are doing just fine :)
Akasha



SunNMoon -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 2:22:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sodsta
A Dominant once asked me what I wanted, and I had SUCH a hard time getting it out. I stammered, and blushed, and found it hard to make eye contact... I'm not sure if that was pride or just me being incredibly shy... or both... but that's similar to the issues I feel I have with begging.



Personally I find that incredibly hot.

quote:
Perhaps my "pride" isn't actually the same thing as my issue of shyness... I'm not entirely sure. I just don't want whatever it is to get in the way of my submission and giving my Dominant what they want and need from me.

I hope that made sense...? lol


The tick is that everyone is different so what one dom-type likes is different from another. If it's just shyness then sending time together should help with that, or it might just have to find someone that finds that endearing.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 2:31:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sodsta

A Dominant once asked me what I wanted, and I had SUCH a hard time getting it out. I stammered, and blushed, and found it hard to make eye contact... I'm not sure if that was pride or just me being incredibly shy... or both... but that's similar to the issues I feel I have with begging.



Yup...been there...done that.  I am an -utter- prude when it comes to talking face-to-face about my particular tastes.  I can do it with my Owner now when it's required and when I find the conversation interesting, but I can remember one of the first serious questions she asked me about myself after she decided to begin training me was, "So, what do you think you're interested in?"

20 years worth of fantasies and I really couldn't find an answer.  Mostly, I didn't want to be bound by those fantasies at the end of the day.  I wanted her to introduce me to things as she saw fit.  I just told her my hard limits, and what I thought might be some of my softer limits.  One of my hard limits at the time was sex.  Now being her slut is one of my primary duties.  After a time, I decided that I no longer wanted her to respect that limit.  I knew I loved her enough to relinquish that.

Yes, as time has gone on, I've gotten better about talking openly to her about things, but I'm still very much a prude. :-p

DV's Fox



MistressVnus -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 2:32:46 PM)

quote:

Perhaps my "pride" isn't actually the same thing as my issue of shyness... I'm not entirely sure. I just don't want whatever it is to get in the way of my submission and giving my Dominant what they want and need from me.


Well, dear, that's a completely different ball game.
Shyness and embarssament vs. false pride or machismo, are two different things.
If it is just shyness, or still some difficulty expressing things you might not even have come to terms with yourself yet, that is nothing that will get in the way of your submission.  That is quite "normal" for those in the beginning process of self-discovery.  When you find the right Mistress, as others have said, and you build that intimacy with her, she will pull you out of that.  Quit worrying so much.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 3:11:03 PM)

I dunno.  I would say that you are "too proud" at exactly the moment that pride prevents you from expressing your true feelings or doing what you know is right.  Judging by your OP, you know that your pride is an obstacle to doing things that are morally right (like apologizing when you know you are in the wrong) or that you know are personally sensible (like letting someone else have the last word, for the sake of everyone's sanity).

If you don't find it an obstacle to your submission, that's good.  I can see where a tendency to be argumentative and stubborn could turn some dommes off, though.  Men who are disrespectful or give me the impression that they're not listening are a big turn-off, for me.  I don't like the sensation that someone is trying to "win" a discussion--I associate that kind of behavior with male-dom intellectual conquest, and it's just as unsexy in its way as a man raising his hand against me.

Shyness is a separate issue, from my point of view.  Shyness is a cousin to fear, specifically the fear of rejection or being denied.  The symptoms represent a desire to protect yourself when you are very vulnerable, usually because you want something too badly for "no" to be anything but a devastating answer.  And who doesn't enjoy having the power of a devastating "no" resting ever-so-lightly on her tongue?  [sm=trident.gif]

As others point out, it's the authentic vulnerability that makes it sexy.  You could mask that as pride, but the pride would only be a mask, wouldn't it?  And masks are hot, so long as they don't get in the way of kisses...



WalterRego -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 4:04:44 PM)


quote:


You really want to know?  Really?
I whip them until they cry.  Really sob, cry, and beg for mercy.  All male pride goes out the window when a Domina "makes" a man cry.  Especially when he says something prideful like.."I've had others try but they've never been able to break me or make me cry."
I just grin and ask them do they trust me.  And, if so, will they agree to let me have a go at it. (my singletail has never failed me yet)
Of course, this isn't done to put a notch in my belt.  It's done to serve the purpose I just stated.  Because, you see, once he is crying and begging for mercy, I take him down, hold him, kiss his tears away, and thank him for surrendering his tears.  Just a quick note that, often, the tears don't come until they are taken down and can relax enough to let them flow.  But I always know by the body language when they are there and I can let them down.
And when the tears begin,  I tell him how much that surrender turned me on (and it does) and that this is what I need from him.  Surrender.
Oh, btw, I always tell them what I'm going to do and make sure they are in agreement to this and that there is no "stop" code word.  And, of course, that male pride will agree becuase they've already stated they can't be broken.
I have never done this and it not be effective.  EVER.  It has made some of the most "prideful" men I've come across melt into the most extremely submissive subjects.
But, that is just me.
If they don't want to agree to my terms (the whipping), and they continue to be prideful and full of challenging power struggles, they can hit the road.  And, all this said, I'm interpreting your question to mean that you are having a difficult time adhering, obeying, and giving up the power struggles with your Mistress/Domina.





Taking You at Your word that it has always worked to melt the most prideful man....has it, though ever had a bad effect? Broken their pride but made them feel so shamed or so angry or anything else that it hurt the relationship? Or if not with You, do You know of it happening with someone else?

I have always wondered and dreamed about this. It is close to my final frontier and desire. But the fear of not knowing what might happen  (well.... and maybe never yet being in that situation or possibly with a Dominant as confident or able as You to do that) has kept me from going there.



MistressVnus -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/17/2008 4:27:44 PM)

quote:

Taking You at Your word that it has always worked to melt the most prideful man....has it, though ever had a bad effect? Broken their pride but made them feel so shamed or so angry or anything else that it hurt the relationship?


Hmmmm...a bad effect?  No...as 2 have gone one to be Masters.  However, they now have an understanding about certain "walls" that a sub/slave can have that says "I WANT to give you my submission but, I just don't know how.  "Something" is stopping me.  And, if you get them to talk about it, they will even tell you..."there are parts of me that I don't know HOW to give (even thought I want to), so it must be "taken."
It is not done in punishement.  It is done in the terms of "Give it to me.  You can hold back.  But, tonight, I'm taking it from you.  WITH your consent to do so."  It is a very cathartic experience.  For BOTH parties.  And, nurturement and appreciation for the trust, willingness to endure, and the surrender, MUST be truly felt, expressed, and given back.
I have never done this with a casual acquaintance.  Only with those who have really expressed a deisire to submit to me and we have come to a wall.  It has all been consentual.  But it is always an honor, to me, when someone allows me to take them there.  And, I have always been thanked, sincerely, for the experience.
And to answer your question in a nutshell....no, I've never seen any ill effects from what "I" do.  Or, what "we" did.



chezzy52 -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 2:55:10 AM)

For me,if i am guilty of anything it is my heritage and i'll explain why this plays into being prideful.If i was in service to a Domme,i would hope she would have the good sense to drop the persona if i was around my friends from back home.Now that doesn't give me the right to start acting like a jerk or if you will dominant.But i come from an Italian background and when i am with the "gang"it's time for stories and busting chops.Some of this may be off-colored but deep down,we do it for a laugh if anything and most of the talk truly is about family.I have the occassional inkling to recite a line from "The Godfather"but it isn't even my favorite movie.That distinction goes to "The Maltese Falcon".I guess what i am trying to say is the lifestyle world and vanilla world will always collide and there's nothing wrong with being prideful..you just can't be a zealot about it.Besides,being in service to a Domme is the greatest pride i coulld ever imagine..."it's the stuff dreams are made of".  I wonder who will get the last line??..smiles



MistressVnus -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 6:14:45 AM)

quote:

i would hope she would have the good sense to drop the persona if i was around my friends from back home


I have rarely found anyone in this lifestyle who wants the BDSM relationship to be apparent in front of family and vanilla friends.  AND, I would hope you would have the good sense to negotiate this as a limit before going into the relationship. 

And there is a difference in having pride "in" something you do versus "false pride," otherwise defined as the inability to humble one's self.



chezzy52 -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 8:21:27 AM)

I assure You MistressV,it would be negotiated and if it couldn't be negotiated,then that would end the negotiations.Not even my best friend on the planet is aware of my lifestyle choice,which is why i get pretty defensive about it.I do appreciate the input and thank You for the reply.



SailingBum -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 8:23:16 AM)

Wrong thread
BadOne



MisPandora -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 8:33:04 AM)

Being proud is good.  Being a stubborn knucklehead is not.  I find that a sub always needing to argue or have the last word is a very tiring circumstance to be involved in.  If I am interviewing a potential supplicant who has this character flaw, I'm quick to call him out on it and/or decline any further developments between us.  I feel that strongly about it.



SailingBum -> RE: Issues of Pride... (2/18/2008 9:10:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sodsta

Have any of you had experience with subs who had similar issues? How did you deal with it, and how did you get them to overcome it?


I start by beating them.  If they whine I explain to them to shut the fuck up and take the pain for me.  Then I might allow them to beg me to suck my dick.

BadOne

It's a sick world and I'm a happy man



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