Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:21:06 AM)

Child had been flown in for emergency heart surgery, official says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23185937/

"The baby had been flown to Honolulu for emergency heart surgery. He died while detained inside a customs' room at the Honolulu airport with his mother and a nurse."

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NEWS01/802130417/1001/NEWS01

"Even if they had a valid cause for holding the mother of the baby ... there is absolutely no basis for holding the baby or the baby's nurse, who traveled with no luggage," Fried said, adding "the baby and the nurse are naturalized American citizens and have a U.S. passpor



luckydog1 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:23:45 AM)

pretty short on details.....



MzMia -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:24:01 AM)

How sad is this?

I am biting my tongue/fingers.



divi -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:25:22 AM)

That is very sad... Always sad to hear a child died



CrimsonMoan -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:26:04 AM)

This is sad and angers me beyond words. What did they think the baby was a midget terrorist is disguise? A boy badly burned in the middle east gets brought to the country without anyone battign a fucking eyelash but an infant from a country we have never had any problem with is denied his surgery and allowed to die in an airport?!? Someone forgot their common sense at the damn door.



farglebargle -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:27:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan
an infant from a country we have never had any problem with is denied his surgery and allowed to die in an airport?!? Someone forgot their common sense at the damn door.


Samoa's a funny place, in this case, the DEAD BABY was A *NATURALIZED US CITIZEN* ***TRAVELING ON A US PASSPORT***

Is the Department of Homeland Security's alleged goal of making anyone safer worth this cost?



CrimsonMoan -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:31:34 AM)

Went back and read the second article which you hadn't added til after my first response :-P And personally as a mother if my freedom and saftey has to come at the cost of a child's life, fuck it.



carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 9:43:02 AM)

This is a very sad story.  My heart goes out to the family of the 2 week old baby. 

However, let's assume the times in the story are accurate.  The flight landed at 5:30.  They were 15 minutes away from the hospital, so the soonest they would have gotten there if they'd gotten through on greased wheels was 5:45. As it was, the paramedics arrived at about 6:20, and someone had been doing CPR since at least 6:10.  (I am not sure how accurate the paramedic time is, since it doesn't really jive with the 15 minute time to get to the hospital.  But we'll go with it.)

I'm not sure how they get from those times (that the family rep gave) to about an hour of delay.  While any delay in medical care is frustrating, and it's human nature to want to hold someone responsible, my (admittedly uninformed) opinion is that Michael wouldn't have made it anyway. 

I had something similar happen (not in an airport being locked up, but someone's idiocy preventing medical care) when my mother died.  It was less time--probably about 5 minutes--but it wouldn't have made a difference either. 



Alumbrado -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 10:11:32 AM)

Paramedics don't have to leave from the hospital to get someone to the hospital...the run times don't have to match.



carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 10:34:53 AM)

I didn't mean they should match, it just doesn't make sense that getting through the airport, into the car and making a trip to the hospital in a car would take <15 minutes, but the paramedics would take longer.  The paramedics are usually closer because there are more of them--think about your closest fire department compared to hospital--unless you're nearly on the hospital doorstep, there's a FD closer. They have the flashing lights and siren.  That 10 minute estimate is from the family rep, though, and since I know how time perception gets skewed in stressful situations. . .I think it's probably inaccurate.  (If it's not, a 10 minute response time for paramedics is pretty horrific.  We're talking for an airport, not the middle of nowhere.)

Even if it's true, though, I don't know if it would make a difference.  (That does make the assumption that the person doing CPR was qualified, and that CPR would have made a difference in this case.  Depending on where the hole in the heart was, it may not have.)

My biggest question was implied but not stated in the articles.  They mention the baby was on oxygen in the airplane, and that he had oxygen problems in the room.  If the baby was removed from the oxygen tanks, then that's a huge problem, and I take it all back.  I'd be interested in knowing what the problem was--did his sat numbers go down?  Was he in some kind of distress?  They also talk about the warm room, but I doubt that was an issue.  (That's my opinion, and I'm no doctor.)



SirRober -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 10:47:43 AM)

I note tha baby dying to the airports tsa and dhs.... but also you need to attribute it to being in hawaii (u.s.'s own 3rd world state)
where the people are all about not me and later i will take care of it.



burningdesires47 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 11:45:08 AM)

2 week old babies have issues with heat regulation to begin with, get overheated (or too cold) very easily. Add reaction to mom's distress causing rapid heart beat (a BIG no-no with a hole in the heart), potential problems with oxygen equipment which he would have been off of/in the hospital by the time the problem happened (seeing as 15 minutes from landing makes it 5:45 but the oxygen malfunction seems to have started at about 6)... Plus, if you KNOW the baby you're detaining is supposed to be going immediately to a hospital for treatment (which they would have known before they could detain the people to begin with), and the adults in that room are pounding on the door and begging for medical help, don't you think it would take less than two seconds to stick you head in the room and find out if they're just trying to speed things up or if there really is a problem?

Maybe he wouldn't have made it anyway, but at least if homeland security weren't detaining them, then they would have had immediate access to medical care by ALREADY being at the hospital by the time he started going south. Furthermore, if they're saying they thought there was a problem with MOM's visa, when did they start detaining an entire family/group just because of one person's visa issues? You hear more about (and I have experience with) groups getting split up because one person is detained for whatever reason, but they don't keep the people who have no issues. Maybe if it was mom alone with the baby, then obviously they're not going to take a 2 week old baby away from its mother, but if there are no problems with the nurse's paperwork, and mom is saying yes please let the nurse go and take the baby to the hospital, WHY were they keeping the nurse and the baby?

And the hour timeframe does indeed make sense when you count the fact that you're only counting til 6:20 when the paramedics got there... which is 50 minutes, only ten minutes short, of an hour delay. PLUS you have to add in the "15 minutes" to the hospital, which with sirens on might have been 7 to 10. So there's an hour right there. The article states that the family was the first off the plane at 5:30, they were detained for half an hour before the baby started having issues, and they pounded on the door for a few minutes before they were finally acknowledged. I can completely see, given governmental bureaucracy, it taking 10 minutes to find someone who can do CPR on an infant. And that's including the time they were pounding on the door and getting ignored or told to just relax. I'm surprised there was only an hour of delay.



pahunkboy -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 1:46:25 PM)

....yes but 9-11 has sold our soul.  simply put,  the terrorists have "won"



NewMaster86 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 1:52:31 PM)

Yet another reason I want to see this civilization burn to the ground to make room for a new one that actually makes sense.



luckydog1 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 2:21:33 PM)

I think 15 minutes to get accross Honolulu is pretty unrealistic.  That would be with the sirens going and no problems at all.  Why wasn't there a medical team and ambulance or Helicopter waiting to pick up the child from the runway?  That seems to be the first fuck up here.



Termyn8or -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 3:03:39 PM)

I wonder about the whole thing myself.

I am commenting just on the posts in this thread.

When a child is flown across the world for treatment, generally there are prior arraingments made. There will be an ambulance right there and they might be checked, but most likely waved through. Why wasn't there a plan ?

Next, why was the child put on a plane to go get treatment ? Don't they have hospitals there ? And if it such a shitty country that they have poorer medical care than the US, where does somebody get the money for plane tickets for this kid and the entourage accompanying ?

And why the hell would someone go to Hawaii ? Was it closer or something ? Right here in Cleveland we have one of the best burn units in the world. Metro Lifeflight frequently ferries patients from the airport(s) to Metrohealth. Why Hawaii ?

Again, too many questions and too few answers.

T



carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 3:23:04 PM)

Once the paramedics got there, the baby was under medical care, and would have had oxygen--that's why I only counted to there.  And while they may have been able to get out of the airport and to the hospital in 15 minutes, that doesn't mean that he would have already been hooked up to whatever machinery he needed by then.   So in the best circumstance possible, he would have been at the hospital at 5:45.  Instead, he was under medical care at 6:20, and at a hospital by 6:30.  (He was transported to a closer hospital.)

Two week babies with holes in their hearts can typically handle warm temps pretty well, if they aren't overdressed.  Since the room was described as "warm" and not "hot" I think this is jury prep rather than being a contributing factor. 

Yes, it was stupid.  Michael and the nurse shouldn't have been detained. If that were my son, I'd be angry as well. But even so, I don't think that you can say that this child's death is a result of being detained.  There's so much that the articles don't even touch on. . .the exact type of "hole in his heart", for example.  We don't know what sort of problems the baby had in the room--would it have been something that immediate attention could have resolved? There's not enough information there to say that blame exists.

And in all honesty, I have to admit that this press conference to announce their intent to sue less than a week after their son died does raise questions for me.  They aren't going on GMA or Today or Oprah to talk about their pain. they aren't holding a vigil--they are suing, which implies (to me) that they want to put a dollar amount on their son's life. This is their way of grieving; I hope it works for them.  But that choice feeds my natural skepticism. 



kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 4:32:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

But even so, I don't think that you can say that this child's death is a result of being detained. 



Do you see that even if the child had survived, something horribly wrong is going on in US points of entry?



carlie310 -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 4:42:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlie310

But even so, I don't think that you can say that this child's death is a result of being detained. 



Do you see that even if the child had survived, something horribly wrong is going on in US points of entry?

Yes.  And I also see that point being made in my posts above.  Do you?



kittinSol -> RE: Baby detained, dies in Honolulu airport (2/18/2008 4:48:56 PM)

I'm not sure you addressed the fundamental problem here, which is that the mother's paperwork was perfectly in order, but that suspicion brought the immigration officials to detain her with her baby.

The couple are suing because that is all they can do; the other solution would be for them to let it go, and I doubt very much this would provide them with the feeling of 'closure' anybody needs in order to grieve. Money is the only thing we have come up with, in our justice system, to compensate for the loss of a loved one in such awful circumstances.



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