Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear Page: <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:06:14 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Calling people names isn't conducive to an informed and mature debate; but if someone uses a piece of antisemitic propaganda as a way to further their point, it's only fair to call them what they are.

What I find troubling here is that pro-Palestinian posters seem to completely ignore the anti-Jewish stance of Hamas and many other organisations, whilst not giving Israel the benefit of her relative restraint in the face of restless terrorism and wars at the hands of her neighbours. They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event; but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted  upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that).

In the interest of furthering this conversation, perhaps we should all retreat, take a deep breath, reconsider things with a cooler head... and charge back for another bout of online jousting  .

_____________________________



(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 341
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:07:16 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yes.Be aware,but don`t feed the troll.A good idea.

Extremists,no matter who or what they represent should be ignored and/or laughed at and made fun of.I do it all the time.


The point is that this anti-semitic tract, like it or not, is mentioned in the charter of Hamas and clearly doesn't face the same criticism, in the more populist arenas of the Muslim world, as it does in the west. 

Talking about it, or talking about talking about it: lets get it out of the way.  While it's legitimate in debate to tackle the concerns put forward by those with opposing viewpoints, it might now be more productive to move on to the real issues, rather than indulging in more ego-play. 

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 342
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:08:49 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

The point is that this anti-semitic tract, like it or not, is mentioned in the charter of Hamas and clearly doesn't face the same criticism, in the more populist arenas of the Muslim world, as it does in the west. 



Exactly.

_____________________________



(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 343
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:10:39 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Taking one line out of context?  Thought you were better than that.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 344
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:18:28 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I think she was agreeing w/ you.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 345
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:19:44 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Antisemitic by your standards.
 
I guess I haven't reached to point where I'm willing to form those sorts of conclusions based on a few threads.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:21:38 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event


Not at all, just to remember it when endorsing the apartheid government of Israel.  Don't cherry pick.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

quote:

but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted  upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether.


The potential for injustice goes back to before 1948, before the Holocaust and in a way, before Balfour.  The British toyed with the notion of backing a western pro-consul state way back in the 1880s.  Considering the FCO's so-called Arabist leanings, it gives you an idea of the mindset which prevailed.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 347
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 7:37:48 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation.



_____________________________



(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:01:22 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.



Respond to extremism? I can't take it seriously, and I've better things to do with my time and energy.


Extremists,no matter who or what they represent should be ignored and/or laughed at and made fun of.I do it all the time.


Of course that always begs the question which side is really the extremist

  




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:02:34 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation.
It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:17:28 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation.
It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol?
Who here has asserted that the Israelis/Jews are without fault? Who? Link to the post, and quote the statement, please.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 351
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:29:01 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event



Kittin, what are your thoughts on Russell and Chomsky? Two of the great anti-war and civil liberties proponents - one of them earning the Nobel Prize for Literature through championing civil liberties, individual rights, humanitarian ideals and free thought.

Chomsky regularly refers to the Israeli state as a fascist one.

One of Russell's last recorded speeches: a permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. ... What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted  upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that).



History is being considered from all sides: the Palestinians are indiscriminately using rocket attacks on the Israelis.

Think of it like this though, the Israeli government has crushed Palestinian economic and social aspirations: a state has terrorised a whole people in comparison with a minority of people using violence as a means of regaining former land.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/28/2008 8:32:40 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 352
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:33:05 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Anyone that starts to scream hell and bloody murder when someone suggests some jew has a smudge on his face cannot be considered a rational person, Hippie. This is what happened in this thread and it is the reason why I have blocked the posts of one such person; I just could not stomach the disgust I felt for such behaviour any more.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 353
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:50:12 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		General reply.

Solution:

1) Establish a Palestinian state with the frontiers set out by the UN.

2) The withdrawl of the Israeli army to within their designated frontiers.

3) The resettlement of Arab refugees to within their frontiers.

4) Aid programmes to help the Palestinian economy and society recover.

5) The United States government to keep its beak out, as it's

a) funding and arming Israel
b) using its veto at the Security Council to prevent Israel complying with world opinion.

A point to note: some of the most notable critics of the current Israeli government actually welcomed the formation of an Israeli state.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 8:52:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Calling people names isn't conducive to an informed and mature debate; but if someone uses a piece of antisemitic propaganda as a way to further their point, it's only fair to call them what they are.

What I find troubling here is that pro-Palestinian posters seem to completely ignore the anti-Jewish stance of Hamas and many other organisations, whilst not giving Israel the benefit of her relative restraint in the face of restless terrorism and wars at the hands of her neighbours. They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event; but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted  upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that).

In the interest of furthering this conversation, perhaps we should all retreat, take a deep breath, reconsider things with a cooler head... and charge back for another bout of online jousting  .


Is this restraint? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/israelandthepalestinians2
Maybe you think it is, I've no idea.

As for Hamas, Hamas like many other Palestinain organisations were not pre-conflict organisations, they are resistance movements, formed as direct result of Israeli subjugation of the Palestinians. If they are terrorists, Israel created them.

It's all a matter of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Israel uses state terrorism but pro-Israelis never complain about that terrorism, which is systemic and unrelenting.

To plum the depths, if you want to know who is killing who, look at the death rates of both sides, you will find the Israelis are far more efficient than the Palestinians. If you want to know who is stealing land off who, look at the progress of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, you can find plenty on the internet published by credible and respected sources. Look at who is locking who up without trial. Look at who is torturing who. Look at who is stealing who's water. Look at who is demolishing who's homes.

If you think that finding Israeli policies repugnant is anti-semetic, there are enough none Israeli Jews that find it repugnant and are in despair over it so I guess they must be self-hating Jews.

I found this quote by Edwina Currie, a former British Minister.

I was born and brought up Orthodox Jewish - nothing will ever change that. There are three aspects to being Jewish. The first is genetic - I look Jewish and sound Jewish. The second is cultural - that's to do with family values and care in the community that we generally take for granted. I try to practice this in my own life - giving to charity and caring for others is very deeply ingrained. The third aspect is religion. This is where I part company with the Jewish faith. I find religious mumbo jumbo hard to swallow in any faith. Politically I do not subscribe to the state of Israel and hatred of Arabs. In that sense I don't live a Jewish life these days.

Gerald Kaufman, a former British Minister and Jewish.

It is pointless to take the issue to the UN security council, since the Bush administration, seeking to win Jewish votes from the Democrats while impelled to support Sharon by Texas Christian wacky fundamentalism, would veto any resolution condemning the Israeli government.

Economic sanctions and an arms ban against Israel are the only way of breaking the impasse. Such a policy brought down apartheid in South Africa, which was similarly condemned by the world court in 1971 for its illegal occupation of South West Africa (now free and democratic Namibia). It was sanctions imposed by a President Bush (the incumbent's markedly more sensible and principled father) that forced a rightwing Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, to peace talks in Madrid after Bush suspended $10bn of loan guarantees for resettling Russian immigrants in Israel.
 
There are many more.

This isn't about anti-semeticism, it is about the rule of international law and civiliszed values. Those same values your country is supposed to be fighting for. Strange how the people who claim such values tend to be blind when it comes to themselves.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/28/2008 9:10:26 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 355
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 9:13:42 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation.
It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol?


What these threads always seem to devolve into are the sorts of squabbling with all sides ranting endlessly about the fact that everything will be hunky-dory if they Other Side stops doing X.

Maybe the rational solution is for one side or the other to stop the violence, sit down with The Enemy, and find a solution that everybody can live with. 

While it is nice to sit all self-important and insist one does not negotiate with terrorists, that simply begets more of the same insanity tomorrow.  Co-dependant relationships are built around entities that define themselves by the madness in their relationship, and they will fight to maintain the status quo.

What one sees over and over again are people "striving for height (Musashi, Go Rin No Sho)" in order to gain the competetive edge and exterminate or subjegate the opposition, all the while insisting they have to because the other people are forcing them to act that way.

Sinergy

p.s. I am always reminded of Marvin the Paranoid Android indicating "why stop now just when Im hating it?"




_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:23:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

General reply.

Solution:

1) Establish a Palestinian state with the frontiers set out by the UN.

2) The withdrawl of the Israeli army to within their designated frontiers.

3) The resettlement of Arab refugees to within their frontiers.

4) Aid programmes to help the Palestinian economy and society recover.

5) The United States government to keep its beak out, as it's

a) funding and arming Israel
b) using its veto at the Security Council to prevent Israel complying with world opinion.

A point to note: some of the most notable critics of the current Israeli government actually welcomed the formation of an Israeli state.


The creation of a jewish state is as repugnant as creating a tally-ban, catholic, protestant or any other religious state. 

As far as the us keeping their beak out, I dont see that happening in either of our lifetimes, any more than I see a reasonable peace within either of our lifetimes.

Its bad government from the start and nothing more than throwing good money after bad unless its literally ripped out by the roots and done over.

The only possibility is a palestinian state but I have no reason to believe that they wouldnt feel they are better off just the way they are.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/28/2008 12:24:35 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:45:09 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Aren't you missing a few critical points?
 
6) Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state.
 
7) There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked.
 
8) Palestinians must police their own, by immediately arresting all those within their ranks that use terror as an instrument of policy.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:55:30 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Aren't you missing a few critical points?
 


'Not sure Caitlyn, what do you think?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state.
 


There's a heavy burden of proof needed to justify these "strong measures", and the proof doesn't exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked.
 


Just like you'd want a plan in place in the event Outer Mongolia was attacked?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 
Palestinians must police their own, by immediately arresting all those within their ranks that use terror as an instrument of policy.



Agreed.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 1:13:04 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked.
 



FR:

Presumably this would work both ways.

Not insisting Israel would attack, but I am sure they would accept an international rule that was fair to everybody.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 360
Page:   <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear Page: <<   < prev  16 17 [18] 19 20   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094