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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 2:20:16 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		General reply:

Ultimately, the issue is this: no people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country; how can anyone expect the Palestinians to accept a punishment that nobody else would tolerate?

This is why I suggest the solution is this: the Israeli government should aim for conciliation and provide for concessions, because the Palestinians and wider Arabs want what they believe is theirs - best to strike a deal while the Israeli government has a decent hand to play with.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 2:48:07 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Ultimately, the issue is this: no people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their country The Australians seem ok with it, but seriously the Palestinians were not expelled in masse.  they live in Isreal, with full rights, vote, serve in the Knesset, hold Mayor and police function, ect.  The idea that they were cleansed is a LIE.; how can anyone expect the Palestinians to accept a punishment that nobody else would tolerate?

This is why I suggest the solution is this: the Israeli government should aim for conciliation and provide for concessions Isreal has done this several times, because the Palestinians and wider Arabs want what they believe is theirs Yes and it was stated in 1948,""Azzam Pasha, the Arab League Secretary, declared on Cairo radio : 'This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.'[107]" .  This is a chosen spokesman of the Arab League, not just some dude- best to strike a deal while the Israeli government has a decent hand to play with.  If absolute destruction is the goal of one side there really can't be a serious deal.  The day Isreal doesn't have a decent hand is the day the Wall is destroyed, and their children die.  Isreal could have easyily wiped out the Palestinians, and smashed the Arab states.  They haven't... they don't want to, despite what the Protocols claims.  Again, I point out what no one has had the cojones to reply to,  in 48 the West bank, Jerusalem, Gaza and Golan were all in Arab hands.  Isreal did not step one inch out of its alloted area.  The Arabs had it for 20 years, refused to allow a Palestinain state to be formed, and kept the people trapped in misery. And they used it to launch WAR...Pretending you can't see the Anti Semetism of one side is a huge part of the problem.
 

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 3:50:49 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Oh Lucky, don't you know a simple error in translation when you see one? 
That has already been explained to us.  What Azzam Pasha no doubt actually said was ' To my dearest Israeli brethren, much love..."

And we've also had the only possible solution explained to us...conciliation and  atonement... from one side only.

It is a mess where both sides are engaged in a massive cycle of promoting violence.... both convinced that they are doing what is right to survive.

One side is using history books to remind everyone of the inherent rightness of their cause, and the other side is denying that history and relying on the forged Protocols to tell the world about the evil plans of the first side.

People are free to get their 'truth' wherever they want.  I'm taking mine out of the middle.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/27/2008 3:52:05 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 4:32:55 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Problem is when people hold their 'truth' (as if 'truth' were a subjective thing) as fact - and therefore, refuse to see the facts... for what they are.

PS: and caitlyn made a very, very pertinent point; Israel had declared its independence when the Arab League started the war they were going to loose. Perhaps talks and negotiations should have occurred then  .


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/27/2008 4:36:04 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 5:28:12 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Talks did take place then: between the founders of Israel and the British.  The views of the Palestinian majority were ignored.  In much the same way that the current talks refuse to recognise their elected representatives, Hamas.  For five minutes, forget the past.  Who was it that said "We don't own this world, we rent it from our children."?

I, rebel music
I, rebel music
Why can't we roam this open country
Oh why can't we be what we want to be
We want to be free

3 o'clock - roadblock, curfew
And I've got to throw away
Yes I've got to throw away
Yes I've got to throw away
My little herb stalk

I, rebel music
I, rebel music

Take my soul and suss me out
Check my life if I am in doubt
3 o'clock - roadblock
And hey Mr. Cop, ain't got no
(What you say down there)
Ain't got no birth certificate on me now

I, rebel music
I, rebel music
Take my soul and suss me out
Check my life if I am in doubt
3 o'clock - roadblock
And hey Mr. Cop, ain't got no
(What you say down there)
Ain't got no birth certificate on me now.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 5:28:36 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Much of the propaganda emanating from radical Islamists is parroted by idiots in the West, who seem to see moral equivalency in the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Jewish towns, conveniently forgetting that every time Israel has entered into a cease-fire, the Palestinians screw the pooch.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27731


Please, please, expand!

You forget the indiscriminate murders by Israelis go on on a daily basis in the occupied territories. 8,000 Palestinians incarcerated without trials, the destruction of Arab homes as collective punishment, the annexing of occupied land, the redirecting of Arab water. ALL crimes acccording to international law, UN charter and human rights treaties. Don't talk about defenceless Israelis, Israel has the equivalent military of a large European country. Of course the Palestinians are resisting.

In fact I would highly recommend you go to Israel and see what you are defending.

You are the apologist for murderers.

Worldnetdailly, I've wiped my arse with more balanced reporting, actually, it isn't reporting, its commenting and spreading its own propaganda.

I first went to Israel in 1972 to work on a kibbutz, that is my anti-semetic background. In the time I had off I travelled around Israel with my friend. We were appalled to see how badly the Arabs were treated. Later in the year at a youth hostel in Heraklion (Crete) we met up with some Americans, Australian and other European youth who had also been to Israel to work on a kibbutz, all were as shocked as I and my friend as to how badly the Arabs were treated. I wouldn't treat a dog as badly as what the Israelis treated the Palestinians. It is then I started to question Israel. I was brought up to think Israel was in the right, however, I just couldn't dismiss what I had seen with my own eyes. I've been back a few times since and the situation for the Palestinians gets increasingly worse. I don't find it difficult to understand their resistance, its rational, even if their methods aren't always rational.


Yes and thanks hippie for correcting my grammatic error.  guns dont kill people either people kill people.

Like meat asked here, please do expand on this propaganda theory of yours as I do not see it as reasonable hence the possiblility of propaganda in itself.

That and how do you KNOW with certainty that it is the pals that screw it?  How do you know its not the Mossad and nothing more than a typical CIA style terrorist attack being blamed on the pals?

After all they have everythign to gain from never resolving this.



Well, pork chop, I don't know what that "correcting my grammer" babble is about. I don't recall ever correcting anyone's grammer on CM so Id' be most appreciative if you would point it out for me.

So the Mossad bought Chinese and Russian rockets, smuggled them into South Lebanon, and fired them at their own people in order to blame Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO, right? AH hahahaha that's some funny shit.

Alumbrado did an excellent job showing just how widespread and virulent the anti-Jew propaganda is which oozes from the Arab world like pus from a syphilitic canker. No need for me to revisit it; the pro-PLO faction here seems to have blinders on when it comes to the terrorism of the Palestinians and Moslem Arabs in the area.  I mean, someone who tries to argue that that "Protocols" abomination is factual is way beyond reasoning with; in that, they are very much like Creationists.

Was a guy on B.com called himself "Callsign Archangel". Had an avatar pic of him standing in front of an F-16 (IIRC). Conservative, but not one of the rightard wingnuts who are attached to Rush's rectum like Remoras on a shark. Posted for at least a couple years, was well-respected, even won "Poster of the Year" on the Politics forum (all the Rethugs voted for him, natch). Told about how he had flown rescue missions, and delivered kidneys, and other such grand feats. Fucker was a complete fraud. Stole the avatar pic, made up everything, including a Polish wife. Ah hahaha, there was some serious egg on some faces.

My point of the above little morality play is that on teh Interwebs, people can claim all kinds of shit. Got milquetoast middle-aged married shits pretending to be single "Doms" here and on B.com. For all I know, meatcleaver's Kibbutz story is a fantasy. I have know way of knowing. Wouldn't be the first time someone has made up an experience or a friend/relative/whatever to try and bolster a position. Not saying it is made up, just saying I have no way of knowing.

On the other hand, I HAVE been to Der Haus der Wannsee-Konferenz in Wannsee. If y'all don't know the siginificance of that, you have no business talking about the Shoah. I can prove it because I have the book The Wannsee Conference and the Genocide of the European Jews and the receipt for it. Had the German language edition also, but gave it away. There's an excellent movie w/ Kenneth Brannagh, "Conspiracy", about said Conference, which was partly filmed at Wannsee. It's a fine old house, upper class architecture, high ceilings, gorgeous wood floors and trim, right on the Wannsee. Beautiful gardens, gatehouse, carriage house, the whole nine yards. I did my best to get through all the exhibits, but I couldn't. I had to go out and sit in the garden and weep (more like broke down and cried). It tore me up. It is something I will never forget. Nor will I ever forget a visit to Dachau back in 87. One can almost feel the presence of the souls who died there. When I left, there was nothing I could say. It took me a couple hours before I could say anything to my ex-wife and her sister.

Those two events, a fuck of a lot of reading, and seeing other things, like the sign outside the Wittenbergplatz U-bahn station on Tauntzienstraße that lists all the KZs and the plaque in Tutzing on Starnbergersee commemorating the last prisoners to be liberated from the Dachau sub-camp there, inform my view of Israel and the ME.

And this is my view: yes, the Israeli govt has done some bad things, and over-reacted, but they didn't kill athletes in Munich in 72. They don't send kids with bombs strapped to them into restaurants and on buses. They don't fire off rockets indiscriminately. Their avowed goal is not the destruction of Jordan, or Syria, or the death of all Palestinians. They don't break every cease-fire. They don't have 3rd-world ratholes sponsor UN resolitions condemning the Palestinians every month.

I support the right of Israel to exist and do whatever is necessary to preserve a homeland for the Jewish people. If the Paletininas don't want to become civilized and actively pursue peace and a peaceful solution, Fuck 'em.

BTW, father's father and mother were from Vienna and Berlin, and were Katolische and Evangelische, respectively. Mother's father was agnostic and his wife was a Jehovah's Witness.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 5:34:52 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Go tell that to the parents of the kids who were shot dead for playing football too near to a fence. 

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 7:46:44 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
Thanks everyone for making such a big stink about all this!  I probably would never have even bothered to look at it until now!

This whole thing is in a word reprehensible.

Lets start with looking at dubya Senior:
George Bush Sr. Announces The New World Order!

Nothing to prove here right?  Its all out in the open and on the table in front of the cameras.  Anyone willing to argue that dubya did not say that? A good obfuscation maybe?


For those who like me never saw this crap before; here is the title:

WORLD CONQUEST THROUGH WORLD GOVERNMENT
The PROTOCOLS of The LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION

(What a title!)

(How about that court decision that PROVES its a forgery?)

Proven forgery right???????

The Protocols of the Learned Elders of ZION may be briefly described as a blueprint for the domination of the world by a secret brotherhood. Whatever may be the truth about their authorship - and, as will be shown, this has been the subject of bitter dispute - there can be no doubt that the world society to which they look forward is nothing more or less that a world police state.

The book is which the Protocols were first embodied was published by Professor Sergyei A. Nilus in Russia in 1905, a copy being received in the British Museum on August 10th, 1906, Professor Nilus's concern was to expose that he believed to be a ruthless, cold-blooded conspiracy for the destruction of Christian civilisation. (snip for brevity)

The similarity between what was forecast in the Protocols and the fate which had befallen Russiaunder the Bolsheviks was so marked that, after these long years of neglect, they rapidly became one of the most famous (or notorious) documents in the world.

(So it seems that someone wrote a book based on his observations and investigations of the era and when people did the 20 20 hind sight said damn it was all here)

In Bolshevik Russia, the penalty for their mere possession was death. It remains so to this day, both in the Soviet Union and in the Satellite countries. Outside the Iron Curtain, in South Africa possession of the Protocols is also forbidden by law, although the penalty is less drastic. (Ah...censorship and book burning!  Sounds rather Tally-Ban to me!)

As a result of their rapidly growing fame, numerous attempts were made to discredit the Protocols as a forgery. But it was not until 1933 that the JEWS resorted to legal action. On 26th June, 1933, the FEDERATION of JEWISH COMMUNITY brought an action against five members of the Swiss National Front, seeking a judgment that the Protocols were a forgery and a prohibition of their publication. (More Tally-BAN!! No freedom of speech in the zion world eh??)

The procedure of the Court was astounding, the provisions of the Swiss Civil Code being deliberately set aside. Sixteen witnesses called by the plaintiffs were heard, but only one of the forty witnesses called by the defendants was allowed a hearing. The judge allowed the plaintiffs to appoint two private stenographers to keep the register of proceedings THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION Page 15 of 109 during the hearing of their witnesses, instead of entrusting the task to a Court official.    There you have it "STACKING THE DECK"!!   So a kangaroo court is "PROOF" its a forgery!!!

In view of these and similar irregularities, it was not surprising that, after the case had lasted just on two years, the Court pronounced the Protocols to be a forgery and demoralizing literature. The decision was given on 14th May, 1935, but it was announced in the JEWISH PRESS before it was delivered by the Court! (How incredibly ironic!!!!, thats exactly the way everyones FAVORITE PRESIDENT got elected, it was announced unofficially by the press prior to the REAL results, oh and 911, the wtc was claimed to come down from intense heat by an interview with some no nothing bozo on the street by the PRESS on the same day BEFORE any investigation could had taken place, OBL was dubbed the orchestrator and blamed same day BEFORE any official investigation) 

HOW INCREDIBLY IRONIC, HOW TALLY-"BAN"!!



Oh this is really bad:

On 1st November, 1937, the Swiss Court of Criminal Appeal quashed this judgment in its entirety.  

Ok so its NOT PROVEN a forgery at all! 

In fact the court threw it out on appeal!
Whats the word for people who make patently false claims?

JEWISH PROPAGANDISTS, however, still declare that the Protocols have been "proved" to be a forgery.

Cant be!  We all know there is no such thing as a jewish propagandist.  Only "everyone else" lies.

It is natural that the JEWS should try to discredit the Protocols, for their growing fame was focusing more public attention on other revealing utterances. In Disraeli's THE LIFE OF LORD GEORGE BENTINCK, written in 1852, there occurs this quotation: - "The influence of the JEWS may be traced in the last outbreak of the destructive principle in Europe. An insurrection takes place against tradition and aristocracy, against religion and property. Destruction of the Semitic principles, extirpation of the JEWISH RELIGION, whether in the Mosaic or the CHRISTIAN form the natural equality of men and the abrogation of property are proclaimed by the Secret Societies which form Provisional Governments and men of the JEWISH RACE are found at the head of every one of them. The people of God cooperate with atheists; the most skillful accumulators. (incorrectly stated they are not a race but a religion)


I have not read it yet but one quick glance at the table of contents and you can bet your sweet bippy I am going to now!


TABLE OF CONTENTS

Introduction
Protocol I The Basic Doctrine    
Protocol II Economic Wars  (No we dont have any economic wars.  Do we?  We just need to create the NAU cause its the kool thing to do now days!)
Protocol III Methods of Conquest 
Protocol IV Materialism Replace Religion  (America never puts materialism over morality do they? Can we say SUV?  OIL?)
Protocol V Despotism and Modern Progress  (Despotism in AMERICA?  In the name of Progress? No way, Its just been in my footer because I couldnt find anywhere else to put it)
Protocol VI Take-Over Technique
Protocol VII World-Wide Wars  (Never had any of those either have we?)
Protocol VIII Provisional Government  (This is the US when at "war".  Remember Lincoln tried to retract habeous corpus! bush tried to retract literally everything!!  After all we are at war arent we?)
Protocol IX Re-education  (There you go really piss me off and put revisionism in there too)
Protocol X Preparing for Power
Protocol XI The Totalitarian State (Did someone say POLICE state?  Not here! We are free right? Try burning a flag, better yet try protesting a bush rally)
Protocol XII Control of the Press (Oh thats rubbish!  Just watch faux news they will tell you what to think)
Protocol XIII Distractions  (Havent read it and can guess but will reserve my opinion till I read it)
Protocol XIV Assault on Religion  
Protocol XV Ruthless Suppression  (Not here "we have free speech ZONES")
Protocol XVI Brainwashing  (Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Osama bin laden Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism
NEVER IN AMERICA!  but it did)
Protocol XVII Abuse of Authority  (Hey Owner this bud's for you man! "Taze me Taze me!  So is it ok now that its mentioned here?")
Protocol XVIII Arrest of Opponents  (ah the beloved patriot act, domestic terrorism act, military commissions act! Very good, thats the way republics are supposed to be run!!  Right?)
Protocol XIX Rulers and People (Oh yeh Rulers have Immunity!  People get justice as long as it does not interere with the immunityof the ruler!!!)
Protocol XX Financial Programme  (dont even get me started on this one!)
Protocol XXI Loans and Credit  (No problems there the economy is doing great!!)
Protocol XXII Power of Gold  (As in FDR collecting it all for themselves maybe eh)
Protocol XXIII Instilling Obedience (Yeh ban guns)
Protocol XXIV Qualities of the Ruler (I cant wait to read this one)
Epilogue
Appendix

http://ddickerson.igc.org/The_Protocols_of_the_Learned_Elders_of_Zion.pdf


FAMOUS VIEWS ON THE PROTOCOLS

"The United Nations is Zionism. It is the super government
mentioned many times in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of
Zion, promulgated between 1897 and 1905."
Henry Klein, New York, Jewish Lawyer, in Zionism Rules the World, 1948.

"Those who feel libeled by the Protocols have the most obvious remedy in the world; all they have to do is to ruse and denounce the policy of them, instead of denying the
authorship ... But when you come to read them how can any reasonable man deny the truth of what is contained in them??
Norman Jaques, M.P., in Canadian House of Commons, July 9th, 1943

"Upon that much-vexed subject the authenticity of ... The Protocols of Zion we shall not enter, except to say that if the document is a forgery, as alleged, then it is one of the most
remarkable in the history of literature."  The Spectator, London, October 16th, 1920


Well I have seen enough to know I dont want to see any more but thats not my style.  Now I have to read this stuff.  

From what I have seen so far if I were jewish I think I would want this burned too! 

I think I would want laws passed so I could throw anyone in jail who denied the holocaust or even spoke this!! 
Especially if it were true!!!!

I think, no I know if I were in a country with free speech I would do anything in my power call anyone bringing it up names, scream that this is the most vile, fraud, propaganda, prejudice, HATEFUL piece of work ever conceived.  (especially if it were true)

I think I would make laws that no one can utter anything antisemetic. antisemetic being ANY form of criticism what so ever, in fact I would go further to label them terrorists So I could waterboard them to find out where they got a copy from.  

Oh shit the constitution just caught on fire again!  Quick someone get a blow torch to put it out!

What I have seen so far is reprehensible, the comparisons to what is going on in the US are undeniable and its no leap of conscience its only a baby step to get that just reading the table of contents!  I cant imagine whats in it but I am definitely going to read it now and find out. 

The very first thing that popped into my head whne reading the title was dubya senior "proudly" announcing the new world order.  The second thing was everyone who denounces this as a fraud.  The third thing is that the swiss court threw it out yet its still being denounced as a fraud by certain people.

Someone should have warned me what I would see here.  I havent even read this shit yet and I think some people in this thread have a LOT of explaining to do here since its painfully obvious we are walking down the same path as the destruction of russia and sure seems to fit in with what a lot of people bitch about that is going on in this country. 

That and the way the court original proceedings took place wreaks of slap in the face impropriety in favor of the zionists.  Even if the zionists were correct and this were a forgery, (a forgery from what?), a more advanced version maybe)  In any case it sort of paints a really ugly picture of how these wonderful pacifist people operate doesnt it?

So that begs on MAJOR question why would jews wear this and paint it as propaganda instead of saying thats the bad ones over there not us?  Since this specifically targets zionism? So all jews are zionists at heart?  Maybe just the ones that wear it here are zionists?  Maybe one of you can clear that up for me since it seems everyone here has chosen to wear it.

Whats up with that?  Does it really matter who the fuck wrote it or is the message whats important?  How about that jewish lawyer, does he count for anything?  I suppose not.  Ok...so lets everyone get major PC hard on and tell me what no good antisemetic low down bastard I am for investigating the claims made in previous posts and questioning what you are all calling proof. 

After all I disagree and disagree = antisemitism

Lets talk about the swiss throwing it out too.   You all have lots of questions to answer and its not going unoticed that NONE of you are answering them and you only respond to give each other kudos for those in your ball game.  I guess that the way it works eh?  How about it?  Anyone with BALLS enough to actually discuss this?






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 8:17:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Hippikinkster, I enjoyed reading your post, so I want to thank you for it.



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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 8:35:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hippikinkster, I enjoyed reading your post, so I want to thank you for it.


You are welcome. My position has been arrived at over the course of about 35 years. I'd say that it is, at this time, carved in stone, and I cannot foresee any reason to modify it.

It's fashionable for younger Progressives to be pro-Palestinian/"anti-Zionist" these days, just as it was fashionable to have a copy of the Little Red Book (I did) and a poster of Che or Ho, and really fashionable to be in SDS; I hung around some of these folks for a period in 69)(Oh, I have a COLORFUL background hehehe). IMO, this "Way to go! PLO!" bs started back at a conference in Wisconsin of Left groups (It's in a book by Todd Gitlin, one of the founders of SDS) in 67, a bit after the Six-Day War, IIRC. The Black Panthers wanted a resolution supporting the Palestinians/Arabs against "Zionism". The white candy-asses caved, even the Jewish radicals. Big mistake.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 8:44:52 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Being pro-Palestinian is a de rigueur  tool in the leftist kit. Ironically, I consider myself to be pretty far out left on everything (especially here, where the Democrats are considered to be left-wing - I mean, give me a break!), but this obviously splits me up from my political kin. The older I grow, the more enclined I am to reject complacency. It's good that you think outside of the box :-) .

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:06:16 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Being pro-Palestinian is a de rigueur  tool in the leftist kit. Ironically, I consider myself to be pretty far out left on everything (especially here, where the Democrats are considered to be left-wing - I mean, give me a break!), but this obviously splits me up from my political kin. The older I grow, the more enclined I am to reject complacency. It's good that you think outside of the box :-) .
I always have been, uh, original in much of my thinking. This splits me from my fellow Progressives as well. I'm more to the left than most of them anyway, much like you. But I certainly don't march in lockstep with the "Leftist manifesto".

Is it me, or are the two people who most believe in the validity of that diseased piece of anti-Jewish... words fail me; are they also the most incoherent?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:11:11 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Its not you hippie.... though along with the hard left, the Hard Right hates Jews and Isreal.

Its ridculous in a way.  real and term go on and on about supporting the Constitution, while advocating a book that says constitutional governments are Jew tricks to enslave the gentiles.  And the only salvation is to return to the Despotism  of Christian Kings.

Have you ever read it?,  Its really more of a phamplet than a book, takes about 10 minutes to read.  But it was deigned for semi literate Peasants, so it has to be short and simple, like its intended audience.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 2/27/2008 9:17:37 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:12:55 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Is it me, or are the two people who most believe in the validity of that diseased piece of anti-Jewish... words fail me; are they also the most incoherent?



Incoherent, or rabid. Take your pick.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:29:15 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I have often wondered what portion of the left is pro-Palestinian, simply because a high percentage of the right favors Israel.
 
I too consider myseld pretty far left, but honestly feel that many on the left see the world as we would all like it to be, rather than what is actually is.

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Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 10:37:03 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hippikinkster, I enjoyed reading your post, so I want to thank you for it.


You are welcome. My position has been arrived at over the course of about 35 years. I'd say that it is, at this time, carved in stone, and I cannot foresee any reason to modify it.

It's fashionable for younger Progressives to be pro-Palestinian/"anti-Zionist" these days, just as it was fashionable to have a copy of the Little Red Book (I did) and a poster of Che or Ho, and really fashionable to be in SDS; I hung around some of these folks for a period in 69)(Oh, I have a COLORFUL background hehehe). IMO, this "Way to go! PLO!" bs started back at a conference in Wisconsin of Left groups (It's in a book by Todd Gitlin, one of the founders of SDS) in 67, a bit after the Six-Day War, IIRC. The Black Panthers wanted a resolution supporting the Palestinians/Arabs against "Zionism". The white candy-asses caved, even the Jewish radicals. Big mistake.


And having seen first hand how the definition of 'left' since the civil rights era has ranged from solidarity with victims of oppression,  to parroting the mandatory agitprop de jour, this current tack against Jews, and Hispanics, and so many others, creeps me right out.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:42:42 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		A debate on the authenticity of this text is pretty futile, that may be why your increasingly hysterical posts don't attract debate.  You haven't been particularly rigorous in figuring out what is a reliable source and what might simply be the drivel of someone with an agenda of their own.

The facts simply do not support the existence of a secret cabal of Jews bent on world domination.  That is the paranoid fantasy of an anti-semite, Jewish people have as many divisions in their ideas as do any other group in society.  You do yourself no credit by being willing to read such a claim and not then exercising your own objective criteria to decide whether it makes sense. 

It's precisely because such claims work on the paranoid fear of the "other" in wider society that some have challenged this ridiculous tract and exposed it as a fraud.   Not because they were "silencing the truth" but because people often believe the printed word without adequate analysis .  If it were a secret society, wouldn't appearing in court not be somewhat difficult?  If a judge allowed such a group to have their own stenographer, couldn't you argue that they already controlled the court?  With that much power, why bother with a trial?  And why would they commit a "secret plan" to paper in the form of an earlier book?  Have you really, seriously, questioned what you have read?

None of what you have stated stands a moment's scrutiny and your increasingly strident tone speaks less about your subject than it does about you and your entrenched belief.  It does no credit to your support for equality in Israel, that you base it on something which is as vilely racist as the very actions you seek to criticise and any reasonable person will distance themselves from your views for that reason.

The worse thing is, what could be a worthwhile debate goes down the drain because of this crap.  It just allows people to whip up emotions and avoid confronting the facts - and the facts are, human rights abuses are going on as we speak. 

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:53:49 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"The facts simply do not support the existence of a secret cabal of Jews bent on world domination."

Nor do they support the existance of a secret Jewish cabal that wants to re create Greater Isreal, and exterminate the Palestinains.

The lack of factuall basis doesn't deter a lot of people from pushing these related views however.

There are human rights abuses going on all over the place.  Lets look at them for real.  You cite kids being shot playing football, can you give a little detail?  I can find many examples of kids being pushed to the front or used as cover in attacks.  The Human Rights Abuser is the one hiding behind kids, getting them hurt.  The demolishing of Homes has been cited several times, but that ony happens after the homes are used to launch attacks.  That is only because of the War, which was started by non Palestinain Arabs.   Palestinain Fighters are in jail for being fighters, not for civil crimes.  They don't get trials, they get held till the war is over.

As soon as the Goal of the total destruction of Isreal is abandonded there will be peace, and the Palestinian people can end the nightmare they have been kept in for 50 years now.


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 12:54:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Oh and I think the evidence shows it was the zionists that chose war, way back before 1948, they left enough written evidence of their ambitions and plans.


Plans written by individuals are not public policy. It was not Israel that attacked her neighbors after her formation, now was it?
 
This is very simple really. The position of some here, yourself included, is the way of war. I'm sure that isn't your intent, but cutting directly to the chase, you are sending a signal that it's fine to fight deadly war, and attack your neighbors, and if you lose we will still hear your claims. Mine is the way of peace, although I'm sure many will say different, that sends a clear signal that you better not fight deadly war and attack your neighbors, or you may lose all, and the world will turn a deaf ear.
 
You are correct in your criticism of the United States. The best thing we could do for the Middle East, is get the hell out. It would do no harm to let the warring factions over there go back to killing each other with muskets.


It was the British that had the policy to back the zionists led by Balfour, who had the bible on hius mind rather than the good governance of the region. That was why alien Jewish immigration (both legal and illegal) was taking place. The zionists were trying to get as many Eastern European Jews into the region to make their policy of annexation de facto when the British left. The socialist British war time government changed their priorities and their position towards the zionists, seeing the immigration policy as destabilizing. This caused the zionists to lose the confidence in the Brits who then turned to terrorism to fight the British. One of the reasons the Arab population didn't agree to the partition of the area was that they also didn't trust the British because of Britain's earlier pre-zionist policy. The British were happy for their mandate to end and cut and run but they really had no choice, Britain was spent after the war and couldn't resist US wishes. The US insisting that the UN should make decisions in the region but it didn't do anything really apart from back the new Israeli state and implied it was against the Arab population. Of course, the Arabs felt betrayed and humiliated by the west who had courted them throughout the war to get their oil and promised them control of their own lands.

ALUNBRADO. I know you won't answer this because you haven't got an answer. WHY were the zionists only interested in Jewish immigration from eastern Europe and not from Arab regions if the Arabs were hell bent on murdering Jews? I'll tell you, even though you probably know but it will make you raving against the Arabs look purely prejudiced. The Jews were doing all right living amongst the Arabs, they were accepted and there was no prejudice against the. The zionists couldn't start to persuade them to pack up their good living and move to an area where there was trouble. It was only later did the Arabs turn and expell the Jews in their midst which was a direct response to the zionist ethnic cleansing of the new Israel. A rather stupid policy by the Arabs but then, the Arabs are not one people which the west like to conveniently portray them and they woiuld not have felt too much alligence to the Palestinian Arabs who hasd a fair proportion of Christians amongst them.

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Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/28/2008 1:07:54 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

My point of the above little morality play is that on teh Interwebs, people can claim all kinds of shit. Got milquetoast middle-aged married shits pretending to be single "Doms" here and on B.com. For all I know, meatcleaver's Kibbutz story is a fantasy. I have know way of knowing. Wouldn't be the first time someone has made up an experience or a friend/relative/whatever to try and bolster a position. Not saying it is made up, just saying I have no way of knowing.




hippie, it ain't a fantasy. As good as we were treated on the kibbutz and as good a time we had there, when you left the kibbutz to tour wider Israel, you couldn't miss the fact the Palestinians were treated as second class people. But you could go yourself or you could do some research from the comfort of your home. There are enough credible sources that back me up on this. It's difficult to go to a place like Israel, see the plight of the Palestinians and not form an opinion, not to form an opinion would not be human.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
And this is my view: yes, the Israeli govt has done some bad things, and over-reacted, but they didn't kill athletes in Munich in 72. They don't send kids with bombs strapped to them into restaurants and on buses. They don't fire off rockets indiscriminately. Their avowed goal is not the destruction of Jordan, or Syria, or the death of all Palestinians. They don't break every cease-fire. They don't have 3rd-world ratholes sponsor UN resolitions condemning the Palestinians every month.


The zionists ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians and class another 250,000 Arabs with the Orwellian title Absent-Present, giving Arab citizens of Israel and their descendents permanent second class status. The Israeli defence for this category of citizen is that these people left Israel (as opposed to being ethnically cleansed) at the birth of Israel. In fact, about half of these people were in fact forced to move under military law. Given the Palestinians had been refused justice and were being completely ignored by the west who caused their problem in the first place by having a pro-zionist policy, terrorism as they saw it, was the only way to go. After all, terrorism worked for the zionists!!!!!! Personally I think violence by the Palestinians has been a stupid move, I fully understand why they are engaged in it, I'm not sure I could stand by in their position and be passive but they aren't understanding the enemy they are dealing with. The western governments claims to believe in the rule of law and civilised values (they don't, just look at their policies) but many of their people do, having to have fought their own governments for justice. The Pelestinians would have got further through peacefully resisting Israel and showing the world the true nature of the Israeli state.

You really should read your history on the region.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/28/2008 1:46:57 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 320
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