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meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/3/2008 12:12:20 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
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I have said before on many occassions that the British started the conflict through the Balfour agreement
And in support of that claim, we get from several posters here the notion that there was no campaign of violence against the Jews prior to that time.... it all started with the Zionist land grab, whihc caused the end of the peaceful co-existence of Jew and Muslim.
I don't speak for other posters but you are being disingenous here, the violence was on both sides and just because a few Arabs ranted, doesn't mean they spoke for all Arabs. That is like saying Hitler spoke for all Europeans. Clearly he didn't or he would have won the war and most Arab countries were under the western yoke so it is bullshit to imply they could have had a campaign against the Jews with impunity. At the time the vast majority of Arab countries there was no violence against the Jews which was why the Jewish immigration was from east Europe where anti-semeticism was rife and not from Arab countries where Jews were usually integrated into the fabric of the societies.
The Muslim role in the Holocaust is denied as 'vile propaganda', the genocide attempts over the centuries 'unproven', or 'not relevant', the fiction is touted that the Jews and Arabs all lived in total peace until the 'Zionists stole the Palestinian's homeland', etc.
The muslim role in the holocaust was a few hot heads with no power spouting hot air.
Anyone who points out that it isn't about land, it is about the religious and ethnic goal of killing every Jew on the planet is swarmed with ad hom attacks to derail that line of discussion. The hijack is couched in blaming antebellum Zionists and denying being anti-Jew.
I can't speak for others. Zionists are a nationalist, ethnic oriented group. I think that defines them as fascist, whatever dictionary you care to use.
The current smokescreen of disinformation that makes it OK to keep the cycle of violence going and send in the suicide bombers and missiles, is based on this 'everything was fine until the Zionists screwed it up after WWII' verbage.
No, you have thrown mud around in hope that it sticks and never once (what I can remember) gave a straight answer to a straight question but prefered to label people who have different views to you as anti-semstic. Doesn't wash. Netanyahu used to do that all the time when he was asked pertinent questions about Israeli treatment of the Palestinians.
Now, here are articles from the source that meatcleaver declares 'probably good' (bet he changes his mind...)
Go to the home page, then the history page, then follow the link 'Early History of Palestine'.... dig though as many footnoted and well referenced articles on what is really behind the current situation in the Middle East as you wish...they are plentiful, and the answer is always the same... it is about killing Jews.,
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/persecution.html
"Contrary to the myth that Jews lived in harmony with the Arabs before the Zionist state, innumerable authoritative works document decisively the subjugation, ppression, and spasmodic anti-Jewish eruptions of violence that darkened the existence of the Jews in Muslim Arab countries.
In truth, before the seventh-century advent of the Prophet Muhammad and Islam, Jews and Arabs did have harmonious relations, and words of praise regarding the noble virtues of the Jews may be found in ancient Arab literature...
...
Jews were relegated to Arab-style Jewish ghettos -- hara, mellah, or simply Jewish Quarter were the names given the areas where Jews resided -- recorded by travelers over the centuries, as well as by Jewish chroniclers. A visitor to four-teenth-century Egypt, for example, commented in passing12 on the separate Jew-quarter, and five hundred years later another visitor in the nineteenth century verified the continuation of the separated Jewish existence: "There are in this country about five thousand Jews (in Arabic, called 'Yahood'; singular, 'Yahoodee'), most of whom reside in the metropolis, in a miserable, close and dirty quarter, intersected by lanes, many of which are so narrow as hardly to admit two persons passing each other in them."13
In 1920, those Jewish families in Cairo whose financial success had allowed them out of the ghetto, under relatively tolerant rule, had been replaced by "poor Jewish immigrants." Thus, although the character of the population may have changed, the squalor and crowding remained. As one writer, a Jew, observed:
Our people are crowded and clustered into houses about to collapse, in dark cellars, narrow alleys and crooked lanes choked with mud and stinking refuse, earning their meagre living in dark shops and suffocating workshops, toiling back to back, sunscorched and sleepless. Their hard struggle for existence both inside and outside the home is rewarded by a few beans and black bread.14
Under no circumstances were Jews considered truly equal. Among the Jews in Arab lands were many individual personal successes and regionalized intermittent prosperity, but the tradition of persecution was characteristic throughout most of Jewish history under Arab rule...
...In Syria, the infamous blood libel of 1840 brought about the death, torture, and pillage of countless Jews falsely accused of murdering a priest and his servant to collect the blood for Passover matzoth!18 Before the Jews were finally vindicated of this slander, word of the charges had spread far from Damascus, causing terror in numerous Jewish communities.
The scurrilous blood libel has not been purged from Arab literature, however. In fact, the Arabs seem in the past two decades to have seized upon this primitive old calumny with renewed vigor. In 1962 the UAR (Egyptian) Ministry of Education published "Human Sacrifices in the Talmud" as one of a series of official "national" books. Bearing on its cover the symbol of the Egyptian Institute for Publications, this modem book is a reprint of an 1890 work by a writer in Cairo.19 In the introduction, the editor shares his discovery: "conclusive evidence ... that this people permits bloodshed and makes it a religious obligation laid down by the Talmud." The editor's description becomes more vile as it purports to become more explicit regarding the "Indictment."20
Two years later, in 1964, a professor at the University of Damascus published his own affirmation of the nineteenth-century blood libel, stating that the wide attention given the story served a valid purpose: to wam mothers against letting their children out late at night, "lest the Jew ... come and take their blood for the purpose of making matzot for Passover."21 Still another version, also published in the 1960s, "The Danger of World Jewry to Islam and Christianity," alleges that thousands of children and others disappear each year, and all of them are victims of guess who?...
....
Hitler's crimes against the Jews have frequently been justified in Arab writings and pronouncements. In the 1950s, Minister Anwar Sadat published an open letter to Hitler, hoping he was still alive and sympathizing with his cause. Important Arab writers and political figures have said Hitler was "wronged and slandered, for he did no more to the Jews than Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, the Romans, the Byzantines, Titus, Mohammed and the European peoples who slaughtered the Jews before him." Or that Hitler wanted to "save ... the world from this malignant evil..." 31
Arab defense of the Nazis' extermination of the Jews has persisted: prominent Egyptian writer Anis Mansour wrote in 1973 that "People all over the world have come to realize that Hitler was right, since Jews . . . are bloodsuckers . . . interested in destroying the whole world which has . . . expelled them and despised them for centuries ... and burnt them in Hitler's crematoria ... one million ... six millions. Would that he had finished it!"32
And this work also puts the lie to the 'we're only interested in peace, through restoring the Palestinian's land' rhetoric.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/nationalism.html
Over the decades, as the nineteenth-century Palestinian Jews were reinforced by successive waves of Jewish refugees, anti-Jewish violence erupted spasmodically in the Holy Land. Observers labeled these outbreaks as "European anti-Semitism," "Ottomanism," and later, "anti-Zionism."
British officials attributed the violence-so-called "disturbances" -- to the manifestation of "Arab nationalism." The British, however, were never able to discover any manifestation of such nationalism on the part of the Arabs in Palestine. They did not try to set up a government or any other nationalistic institutions. Even when the notorious Nazi, the Grand Mufti returned from Berlin after WWII in 1948 to briefly set up a "Palestine Government" in Gaza, it was ignored.* The only mode of expression of nationialism before 1948 was the oppression and intolerance shown toward Jews.
This narrowly based "nationalism" of violence continued to grow as the Jews continued to struggle out of dhimmi (subservient) status toward freedom and equality. British investigators were eventually forced to concede, and officially to note, that "Arab nationalism in Palestine has been artificially puffed up.... Only a little firmness is needed to deflate it."...
...
For example, in 1848 about four thousand armed peasants and "numerous Bedouin allies acted as gangs for "two great chiefs," and lawlessness spread. Hebron's local governor was overthrown by an oppressive chief whose brutal tactics earned him the admiration of Jerusalem Is Pasha and the award of the "robe of honour." In Hebron, one of the holy Jewish cities, Jews were still "helpless" and "plundered" and the new ruler managed to confiscate booty of those trying to flee by sending agents to rob travellers on the road."3
In the following few decades (1848-1878) scores of incidents involving anti-Jewish violence, persecution, and extortions filled page after page of documented reports from the British Consulate in Jerusalem. A chronology would be over-whelming, but perhaps a few extracts from those complaints will show the pattern of terror that continued right into the period of the major Jewish immigration beginning about 1878.
May, 1848. I have the honor to report that after the disturbance in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre Easter Eve, in beating the Jew who had imprudently entered there -- The Prussian Acting Consul here, informed me that he had been told by the Pasha, and also by the Greek Patriarch, that a Firman exists, which allows Christians to beat Jews if found within that Church, or even if passing along the street in front of it -- and which declares that in case of a Jew being killed under such an infliction, the price of blood should be rated at only ten paras -- value about three farthings.
All very well but you are cherry picking and posting out of context. I would recommend people read the complete history of the region.
When you get a sudden influx of aliens into a society from outside, you destablize that society and create racism. This has happened so often around the world it is almost a law of human nature. You see the racism on these threads against Mexicans by Americans because of the sudden influx of illegal immigrants and the zionists were organizing illegal immigration into the region.
As to the beginning of the conflict, the Jewish immigration was the root cause. Yes, the quote is from Wikipedia but you will get the same figures elsewhere. Balfour backing the zionists esculated and dramatically increased the conflict.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab-Israeli_conflict
Tensions between the Jews and Arabs started to emerge after the 1880s, when immigration of European Jews increased with the development of the Zionist ideology. This immigration increased the Palestinian Jewish communities by the acquisition of land from Ottoman and individual Arab landholders, known as effendis, and establishment of agricultural settlements in the historic lands of Judea and Israel, which were then part of the Ottoman Empire. At the time, Arab Palestinians lived an almost feudal existence on the effendis' land in what was known as Palestine. The population in 1880 of Palestine west of the Jordan River was estimated at "under 590,000, of whom 96 percent were Arabs (Muslim or Christian); roughly 4 percent of the population was Jewish".
It is not difficult to see why the area descended into violence.
Now....who wants to offer up a real peace solution that doesn't involve parroting Hamas and Stormfront?
Hamas are an Israeli creation, it is a resistance organisation formed to resist subjugation. That is the laugh when people talk about Hezbollah, they too were formed as a resistance movement to Israeli aggression. The way to fight such organisations is to separate the general population from the resistance movement by giving ordinary people something to live for rather than terrorizing them and giving them something to die for.
I notice by the action of the last couple of days, Israel is still fixated on terror tactics.
But if you insist that all the violence was one way, lets look at the 1948 war and its masacres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_committed_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407072.htm
It was 46 years ago when Israel turned its forces against the all-Palestinian towns of Lydda and Ramleh. On July 13, 1948, Israeli troops forcefully compelled the entire population of as many as 70,000 men, women and children to flee their homes. Systematic looting followed. Swarms of new Jewish immigrants flocked to Lydda and Rainleh, and within days these ancient towns were transformed from Palestinian to Jewish municipalities.
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