RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (Full Version)

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MrrPete -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/19/2008 11:11:22 AM)

just Google on Cuban torture the first thing that comes up is this:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/nov03/10e8.htm




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/19/2008 1:26:41 PM)

quote:

Name one American President that hasn't caused more deaths than Castro!


Ford. I’m sure there are others.

quote:

But come on now you have started, what deaths. There were deaths in fighting for and consolidating the revolution but hey, his opposition wasn't exactly Jesus Christ. You just have to look at the regime he over threw to see that they deserved what they got. As for the US riling against Castro, it was their support for a corrupt and oppressive regime that probably spurred on the revolution, just like in Iran. It is rather laughable that Americans compare Castro to Hitler or Stalin, especially when he and Guevara were created by the oppressive regimes the US supported and gave sustenance to. You rightwing Americans don't seem to have a problem supporting rightwing dictators that grind the faces of the poor into the ground. Actually, that is what the US has been doing to the Cubans for the last 50 years so why should anyone expect anything different.


Yeah, yeah, yeah... it’s all America’s fault... blah, blah, blah... nobody else is responsible for their actions, big bad America made them do it. And if a few innocents get killed or tortured along the way – well it's all for a greater cause, right? I mean, as long as it’s not me paying the price, then the price is acceptable, right? What a crock of pure bullshit. A friend of mine lost his brother in the 9-11 attacks. Would he now be justified in going to the Middle East and gunning down some innocents? After all, he could claim that they "created" him.

As for me being a right wing American who supports right wing dictators, please go back and read post #38. I am no more right wing than I am left wing. I know that left wingers, like yourself, like to think of me as right wing because I refuse to swoon over in orgasmic ecstacy at the mere mention of Castro, but it just ain’t so. As far as I’m concerned the left and the right are mirror images of each other – ideological nincompoops, blinded by hatred, feeding off of each other, and too closed minded to realize it.




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/19/2008 3:12:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Still, Fidel's an idiot. You are the leader of a very small country and the last thing you want to do is piss off the super-power that is 90 miles off your shore.


What? By not allowing their cronies to milk the country dry? By not allowing the CIA to murder him? By resisting a foreign invasion. By not tugging his fore-lock to the American government? By not bending to US embargoes and crushing sanctions?

You are damned right the USA is to blame for conditions in Cuba, and certain countries in South America, and South East Asia, and the Middle East and anywhere else they chose to play World Police.

You and Marc seriously need to take your irony supplements on a daily basis because there is an obvious deficiency of understanding why the USA is roundly unappreciated in much of the world. We are virtually family up here in Canada and you treat us like trash. If that's the best the world can expect from the self made defenders of democracy and liberty then God help us because we are sick and tired of the USA in the role of deity.


Z.

PS: Happy retirement, Fidel.




Alumbrado -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/19/2008 3:15:08 PM)

quote:

...please go back and read post #38. I am no more right wing than I am left wing. I know that left wingers, like yourself, like to think of me as right wing because I refuse to swoon over in orgasmic ecstacy at the mere mention of Castro, but it just ain’t so. As far as I’m concerned the left and the right are mirror images of each other – ideological nincompoops, blinded by hatred, feeding off of each other, and too closed minded to realize it.


There you go, speaking truth to power again....




meatcleaver -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/19/2008 11:45:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

just Google on Cuban torture the first thing that comes up is this:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/nov03/10e8.htm



There is only one answer to your post.

American torture.... http://civilliberty.about.com/od/waronterror/p/torturelite.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/25/AR2005112501552.html

Hell, there are literally hundreds of sites about American torture.




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 8:46:31 AM)

quote:

You and Marc seriously need to take your irony supplements on a daily basis because there is an obvious deficiency of understanding why the USA is roundly unappreciated in much of the world.


On this topic the only things I lack understanding in is:

Why do so many people believe that the solution to someone abusing power is to hand that power over to someone else to abuse?

Why do so many people go into conniption fits of moral outrage over one group of people abusing power, then cheer on another group abusing power?

Why do so many people fail to see that the concentration of power is the problem and what we need is the diffusion of power.

And lastly, why do so many on the wing of politics that likes to shout "POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" balk at actually giving power to the people? Exactly how does a dictatorship jive with that?




meatcleaver -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 8:54:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

why do so many on the wing of politics that likes to shout "POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" balk at actually giving power to the people? Exactly how does a dictatorship jive with that?


Power will never be given to the people which is why Rosa Luxembourg said she was a memember of the permanent opposition.

The thing that winds me up about criticism of Castro is that the people who criticize him are guilty of supporting governments that have caused more death and misery than him and like it or not, we in the west, take your choice from the European empires to the American empire, have caused far more misery, oppression and death than him.




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 9:10:19 AM)

quote:

There you go, speaking truth to power again....


Thanks, although I regard it as simply speaking truth because I don’t see meatcleaver as power. Powerfully exasperating maybe, but not power.  [:D]




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 9:41:36 AM)

Marc, because by definition its a dictatorship of the people, hence good.  And most importantly he hates America.




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 10:22:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You and Marc seriously need to take your irony supplements on a daily basis because there is an obvious deficiency of understanding why the USA is roundly unappreciated in much of the world.


On this topic the only things I lack understanding in is:

Why do so many people believe that the solution to someone abusing power is to hand that power over to someone else to abuse?

Why do so many people go into conniption fits of moral outrage over one group of people abusing power, then cheer on another group abusing power?

Why do so many people fail to see that the concentration of power is the problem and what we need is the diffusion of power.

And lastly, why do so many on the wing of politics that likes to shout "POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" balk at actually giving power to the people? Exactly how does a dictatorship jive with that?


I agree with most of your observations here. What I don't get is why it is OK for the US to commit sins against these principles in their war for democracy? Cuba being a case in point. A transfer of dictator ship is not justified by the existence of worse dictators elsewhere but then in Cuba that's not the justification. In Cuba's situation the justification is pragmatic.

No one should be amazed that harsh, even militaristic conditions persist there. They live in the openly hostile shadow of the most powerful economic and military nation on the globe, which has dedicated the past fifty years and ten administrations to overthrowing the popular revolution there. It's not about ideology it's about economics and survival.

Considering how easily American citizens abandoned their liberties in the face of a far lesser threat, it is galling for them to characterise Cubans as oppressed.


Z.




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 10:42:15 AM)

Yes, it is totally about the survival of Castro's regiem.  Any torture is ok because the regiems remaining in power is paramount.  Honetsly can you expect them to not have harsh millitaristic conditions after 50 years.  There are still people in Cuba who want to vote or speak thier mind, of course harsh militarism and torture is necessary to keep power.   Of course they have to torture people to keep the popular revolution in power...comeon, its popular and the people love it, of course dissent must be smashed and writers jailed.  Imagine if someone where to insult George Bush in the Media, we would of course have them tortured in a cell, just look how we treated Micheal Moore and the Dixie Chicks.

Cubans should be proud to defend thier Glorius revolution and Constitution....

Article 53:




"Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society. The law regulated the exercise of those freedoms."

Article 62






"None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law.

The regiem has to keep power because they know the leadership will end up like Ceasescu and Saddam if the people ever get any ssy in the matter.




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 11:03:07 AM)

How about singing the praises of your own gloriouis revolution for a change lucky.

Oh wait. You do that at every opportunity already.

Did you even read what I wrote?


Z.




philosophy -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 11:34:44 AM)

FR

.....ok, i'm not here to defend Castro. However, if we compare him with other dictatorships in south america (both past and present) then he isn't the worst of the bunch. How come the righteous ire of  the USA appears to be only applied to him? Now Marc has made it clear that he doesn't support any dictatorships, even ones nominally friendly to US interests.......however, he is in the minority of those who clearly dislike Castro. Seems to me there is a dual personality in US foreign policy.....on the one hand dictators are bad, but if they side with US economic interests they are good. i sincerely wish that the US would pick a side........either human rights have supremacy, or domestic intersts have supremacy........one or the other. Both sides have their disadvantages, but at least picking a side would be the moral thing to do......and would finally put to bed the accusation that US foreign policy is hypocritical.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 2:25:38 PM)

Philosophy: Thats the first sensible post I have read from you .
Only joking ....I think lol

However when the US did remove a dictator, Saddam Hussein,  they got it in the neck ....again.




Feric -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 3:33:15 PM)

Right about the time the Soviets cut off Fidel's gravy train, there was a great political cartoon in the Washington Post in which Fidel is bear-hugging Gorbachev right as he gets off the plane, and he's saying, "Papa! So good to see you! Did you bring money?" And Gorbachev is trying to fend off Fidel's kisses and says, "No, son. Actually, I wanted to talk about your grades!"

Fidel and Cuba have been a subject of long interest to me, and I've read quite a few books on both. Fidel is a smart guy (he went to law school, after all), but like 'W', he's a man of set ideas. Throughout his reign, he has parroted the Soviet ideals, and relentlessly pursued Marxism in the firm belief that it would lead to a glorious classless society. The fact that it never happened has--according to all reports I've read--been a bitter blow to him. When the Russian stipends ran dry in the early 1990's, and the evil capitalist society did not come crashing down as Marx & Lenin predicted, Fidel has retreated further and further into militarism, centralizing his power and silencing dissidents while trying desperately to find a way out of his bind.

About ten years ago, Fidel attended a Latin economic conference in Spain; his remarks were predictable (a two hour speech on his part) but the really interesting thing that happened took place in the bar after the official meeting was over. Fidel came into the bar, accompanied by two bodyguards. He spent most of the night drinking gin and shooting the breeze with the other bigwigs, his sentences becoming longer and more rambling as time went on. Finally, in the wee hours of the morning, he looked around the table and said in very desultory tones, "I will be a footnote in history! Thirty years in power, and I will rate nothing more than a footnote!"

He's a beaten man, and he knows it. The great socialist state has been reduced to ashes. The cities are almost in ruins, with no major urban development in fifty years. Vintage 1950's cars rust on the streets, or limp along the roads like crippled veterans--their engines using parts cannibalized from outboard motors. Facing riots in the late 1980's due to increasingly long lines, Fidel and Raul had to abandon government allocations of foodstuffs and allowed the opening of small markets for farmers to sell their produce, all of which are flourishing, with impromptu butchers even selling meat and homemade sausages. Cooperative ventures with companies offshore to open new hotels and even a few tourist attractions have boomed, as visitors flock to a country which has a bottomless appetite for hard currency from outside their shores.

Most astonishing are the native Cubans, who are quickly adapting Capitalist ways and habits, working hard in new businesses to turn a profit. As one Cuban wryly remarked, "Lenin never said that the Proletariats had to be poor."

Fidel's great socialist dreams are being systematically knocked down by people who have grown up in the Communist Utopia, and realized it's a prison camp. Now, they want to build their own civilization, without the benefit of his advice.




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 5:25:34 PM)

Yeah Zensee I did, You had something about how he has to be harshly militaristic, and prevent his people from Political freedom, because after 50 years, he knows they hate him, and would hang him in a heartbeat.  That's why its not really a  problem to jail teachers, writers and artists.  If he thought for one second that he could prevail in a vote he would have had one. 

I see clearly that in this case, just like anything to do with Marxists, its ok.  Castro, just like Lenin, rode a popular revolution into power, then began  using raw force to sieze absolute controll.  For some reason left wingers brag that he held power unchallenged for 50 years and out lasted 10 presidents.  He never stood for a referendum.  Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton both won re- elections.  Castro was scared to even allow it.  So to pretend he has any virtue by reigning as a dictator for 50 years is a bit odd in my book.   Not even 20 years after siezing absolute power would he stand for a referendum on his actions. 

Castro says it is was him or Batista, but that was a lie, and he had to back his lie up with Guns, Soviet money, and dead Cubans.




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 5:59:48 PM)

Lucky, once again you have to put words in my mouth so you can rebut anything other than what I actually say because that would require understanding what I actually said and you seem unwilling or unable to do that. Please don't presume rewrite my posts to fit your needs. I chose my words rather carefully and to have some hack eviscerate them for his onanistic glee is disturbing.

BTW, since I know you are reading this and you are being evasive - you still owe be the courtesy of a reply on this thread. (Apologies for the cross post, to anyone offended.)


Z.




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:14:47 PM)

Good lord Zen, grow up.  I have given you a response to your hijacking on the other thread. 




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:19:13 PM)

No zen, I gave you my comments and instead of rebutting them, you insult and cross post.

I could undertand some excess in the actuall revolution.  Why do you excuse the articles of the Cuban constitution, which has never stood for ratification by the people of Cuba, 10 years after the revolution, 20,30,40, 50.  Now power is being transfered to his brother as a Kingship.  I didn't understand your justifiction of it at all, despite how carefully you think you choose your words




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:39:53 PM)

No actually you never even acknowledged my post even after you whined about my hijacking the thread (which I didn't do, of course). Please get your facts straight.

And if I hadn't apologised for the cross post you probably would have missed that too. I even have to feed you ways to criticise me.


Z.




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