RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (Full Version)

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luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:44:50 PM)

All this to avoid talking about the imposed Cuban Constitution...must change subject...must change subject....

anyway

50 years of absolute power, with no sort of referendum at all, why do you admire that?  




Zensee -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:48:22 PM)

I already explained that. Read what I wrote. I don't 'admire it', I recognize it as an unfortunate result of US interference.


Z.




Sinergy -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Because he is a murdering, torturing dictator.



Like the House of Saud and the Bush family?

Sinergy




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 6:58:15 PM)

Yeah zen, after you accept the fallacy that there was only 2 choices Castro or a new Batista, your point makes perfect sense.  given that there were other options, I do not see why the oppression and dicatorship was needed, and still is today.




FangsNfeet -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 8:43:26 PM)

The Cigars must have caught up with him.




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 9:44:29 PM)

quote:

Power will never be given to the people which is why Rosa Luxembourg said she was a memember of the permanent opposition.


I have a suspicion that we’d disagree on what exactly constitutes "power." To me it simply means that people have the freedom to make most of the decisions (from the mundane to the momentous) in their life and, so long as their actions don’t infringe upon the rights of others, we leave them alone.

quote:

The thing that winds me up about criticism of Castro is that the people who criticize him are guilty of supporting governments that have caused more death and misery than him and like it or not, we in the west, take your choice from the European empires to the American empire, have caused far more misery, oppression and death than him.


Well, first I’d like to point out that comparing all of western civilization to Castro and his one island is a little like comparing the damage a herd of buffalo can do versus the damage a single buffalo can do. But that’s beside the point.

Now, you say that people who criticize Castro are guilty of supporting governments that have caused far more death and misery. I see three things wrong with this. First, to be fair, you should say that most of the people who criticize Castro, etc... I’ll grant that you are speaking in general terms but referring to generalities (real or perceived) as absolutes is part of the process that backs people up into ideological corners (not that I’m not guilty of it myself).

Second, it amounts to a justification. It is the international politics version of the abuse excuse. "Yes, he’s a brutal serial killer but he had a rough childhood," becomes "yes, he’s a brutal dictator, but..."

Thirdly (and this is the part that winds me up) is that people fail to see that you can flip that statement and it still reads the same way: most of the people who criticize right wing dictatorships support left wing dictatorships. This is what I mean (or, at least, one of the things I mean) when I say that the Left and the Right are mirror images of each other. Each accuses the other of hypocrisy while practicing the same hypocrisy. You can see this in all levels of politics and indeed in human relationships in general. I believe it to be a part of our basic animal heritage (but I won’t go off on that tangent here).

I’m certainly not one to call for moral absolutism (it takes to big an investment of mental energy to be pissed off at everyone). If you want to argue causes and effects in a political and historical context then by all means do so – but I fail to see any reason to sing the praises of a man who has denied his people freedom for decades and has presided over torture and summary executions.




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 9:51:27 PM)

quote:

Marc, because by definition its a dictatorship of the people, hence good. And most importantly he hates America.


pssst... yeah, I know... I just like playing with their heads. [:D]




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 10:02:11 PM)

quote:

I agree with most of your observations here. What I don't get is why it is OK for the US to commit sins against these principles in their war for democracy?


It’s not. You’re presuming that condemnation of one equals condonation of the other.

quote:

Cuba being a case in point. A transfer of dictator ship is not justified by the existence of worse dictators elsewhere but then in Cuba that's not the justification. In Cuba's situation the justification is pragmatic.

No one should be amazed that harsh, even militaristic conditions persist there. They live in the openly hostile shadow of the most powerful economic and military nation on the globe, which has dedicated the past fifty years and ten administrations to overthrowing the popular revolution there. It's not about ideology it's about economics and survival.


In other words... it was necessary to destroy the village in order to save the village (all due credit to whoever I’m referencing there).

quote:

Considering how easily American citizens abandoned their liberties in the face of a far lesser threat, it is galling for them to characterise Cubans as oppressed.


All things considered, in America large groups of people can still gather and say nasty things about Bush. When was the last time there was a large (or even a small) anti-Castro demonstration in Cuba?




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/20/2008 10:23:52 PM)

quote:

Like the House of Saud and the Bush family?


[sm=banghead.gif]  Yeah synergy, just like the House of Saud and the Bush family. And just like Pinochet and Ortega, and Sadam, and and Idi Amin and Queen Elizabeth the First, and..."

Wake up! Pay attention! Class has been in session since post 46:

quote:

Pointing out the bad behavior of others does not excuse Castro in anyway.


That’s when I switched from being in my morally indignant mode to my now I must teach them mode. Right now I feel myself slipping into tired and crabby mode so I think I’ll go to bed.

Peace.




meatcleaver -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 1:20:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Power will never be given to the people which is why Rosa Luxembourg said she was a memember of the permanent opposition.


I have a suspicion that we’d disagree on what exactly constitutes "power." To me it simply means that people have the freedom to make most of the decisions (from the mundane to the momentous) in their life and, so long as their actions don’t infringe upon the rights of others, we leave them alone.


You mean, like people with serious power? The idea that decisions made by government and the rich (who own western governments) doesn't impact on the life chances and choices of ordinary people is nonsense. Many people have claimed to be the first to say it but politics is too important to leave to politicians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The thing that winds me up about criticism of Castro is that the people who criticize him are guilty of supporting governments that have caused more death and misery than him and like it or not, we in the west, take your choice from the European empires to the American empire, have caused far more misery, oppression and death than him.


Well, first I’d like to point out that comparing all of western civilization to Castro and his one island is a little like comparing the damage a herd of buffalo can do versus the damage a single buffalo can do. But that’s beside the point.

Now, you say that people who criticize Castro are guilty of supporting governments that have caused far more death and misery. I see three things wrong with this. First, to be fair, you should say that most of the people who criticize Castro, etc... I’ll grant that you are speaking in general terms but referring to generalities (real or perceived) as absolutes is part of the process that backs people up into ideological corners (not that I’m not guilty of it myself).

Second, it amounts to a justification. It is the international politics version of the abuse excuse. "Yes, he’s a brutal serial killer but he had a rough childhood," becomes "yes, he’s a brutal dictator, but..."

Thirdly (and this is the part that winds me up) is that people fail to see that you can flip that statement and it still reads the same way: most of the people who criticize right wing dictatorships support left wing dictatorships. This is what I mean (or, at least, one of the things I mean) when I say that the Left and the Right are mirror images of each other. Each accuses the other of hypocrisy while practicing the same hypocrisy. You can see this in all levels of politics and indeed in human relationships in general. I believe it to be a part of our basic animal heritage (but I won’t go off on that tangent here).

I’m certainly not one to call for moral absolutism (it takes to big an investment of mental energy to be pissed off at everyone). If you want to argue causes and effects in a political and historical context then by all means do so – but I fail to see any reason to sing the praises of a man who has denied his people freedom for decades and has presided over torture and summary executions.


In the grand scheme of things, Castro is a minnow and the willingness of the US to economically grind Cuba into the ground has always been out of proportion, it has shown a mean, spiteful and bitter side to US governments that have only served to create a view of the US as a arrogant imperial bully. Especially when the American politicians that rile against Castro send US troops around the world on imperial jollies.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 1:47:19 AM)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7200682.stm

quote:

Cuban President Fidel Castro has applauded Cuban voters for taking part in parliamentary elections.
Although the final figure is not clear, officials said turnout had reached 95% with an hour of voting time remaining

The result is a foregone conclusion, with only one candidate for each seat.


I have a sneaking admiration for Fidel but he never sent me to prison and I didn't have to listen to one of his 7 hour speeches.
At least he knew how to organise an election !




Level -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 3:11:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

As far as I’m concerned the left and the right are mirror images of each other – ideological nincompoops, blinded by hatred, feeding off of each other, and too closed minded to realize it.


An awful lot of truth there.




FeistynJax1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 9:31:07 AM)

This is my delurking post on Collar Me. 

I have dated a Cuban on and off for the last 20 some odd years.  His family was very wealthy and owned a couple of grocery store's during the  time Castro came into power. They stepped in and his family lost everything they had.  His family didnt come to America on a boat like millions of others.  But flee they did.  Now why would all these people flee that country if Castro is so good?  He was 6 years old when they came here in 1968.  And has no memory of his home land.  All for Castro.  I cant wait to hear the man is dead personally. 




luckydog1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 9:40:51 AM)

So a minnow backs with guns, bodies, and money revoutions in our neighboorhood, and sends its troops halfway around the world to intervene in fighting in Africa.  Wants to put nukes on our doorstep, and provide Submarine bases for the Soviets.  Just wanted to sit there minding its own bussiness huh?  Just a minnow....




RealityLicks -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 9:49:55 AM)

After five months, you are moved to comment!  Does your friend ever wonder why, after Reagan agreed to take 20,000 Cubanos each year out of the hell that is their homeland, the US has never granted visas to more than a small fraction of that number?

Of course, any Cuban who makes it to the US is granted leave to stay.  Cuba will only allow them to go if they have visas - as per the agreement.  It's a policy aimed at creating refugees in unsuitable craft taking matters into their own hands, as this appears to discredit Cuba.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E1DB1E30F934A2575BC0A962958260




meatcleaver -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 9:54:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So a minnow backs with guns, bodies, and money revoutions in our neighboorhood, and sends its troops halfway around the world to intervene in fighting in Africa.  Wants to put nukes on our doorstep, and provide Submarine bases for the Soviets.  Just wanted to sit there minding its own bussiness huh?  Just a minnow....


You always conveniently forget that post revolutionary Cuba was not an ideological country and that it tried to get on with the US. It was the US that refused to deal with Cuba and tried to bring down the new government through sanctions and an invasion. Cuba moved into the Soviet sphere as a defence against an aggressive and imperial USA. As for the nukes, that was a direct reaction to the US siting missiles in Turkey aimed at the USSR. 

If the US minded its own business, didn't support a corrupt and oppressive Cuban regime and didn't push the new government into the Soviet camp for protection, there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place!
 
Get real with your history lucky and stop cherry picking.




FeistynJax1 -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 10:07:49 AM)

Yes.. after 5 months I am letting my emotions come out lol...  Him and his family came over on a plane.... not a boat.. had visa's and got settled into the ghetto around Atlanta in 1968.  Big change from the huge house they had in Cuba before Castro took it... just saying... His homeland was taken away to make Cuba Castro's playland.  He doesnt even have a Spanish accent when speaking.  He feels lost... Cause Americans dont include him and Cubans say he sold out.  <<shrug>> But i know they went through it hard.  That cant be disputed.  Shoot.. he has been in America since he was 6...  was a permanent resident allien.  didnt have to check in with immigration or anything.. When he decided to get his citizenship he ended up having to get a lawyer and fighting for 7 years cause he had gotten a DUI back in the 80's.  Go figure.  He left me a message on my machine yesterday telling me to pack my bags we are going to cuba lol




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 12:06:09 PM)

quote:

You mean, like people with serious power?


I mean everybody. I mean if somebody owns a plot of land and wants to build a house they should be able to build a house without having to jump through the hoops a two dozen different government agencies. I mean people should be able to educate their children the way they want to whether that means public school, private school or home schooling. I mean people should be as free from government interference in their lives as possible.

quote:

The idea that decisions made by government and the rich (who own western governments) doesn't impact on the life chances and choices of ordinary people is nonsense. Many people have claimed to be the first to say it but politics is too important to leave to politicians.


I said violate the rights... This is where our definitions differ, I think. If a corporation wants to shut down a factory, certainly that impacts the lives of those who work there but does it violate their rights? Do people have a right to a job? On the other hand if a corporation, in collusion with government cronies, wants to use (or rather misuse) eminent domain to kick people out of their houses (to make way for a new factory), that’s a whole different ball of wax. Let the corporation look for suitable land for sale and negotiate with the sellers, just like anyone else.


quote:

In the grand scheme of things, Castro is a minnow and the willingness of the US to economically grind Cuba into the ground has always been out of proportion, it has shown a mean, spiteful and bitter side to US governments that have only served to create a view of the US as a arrogant imperial bully. Especially when the American politicians that rile against Castro send US troops around the world on imperial jollies.


Okay, were starting to go around in circles here since you're coming back to the "the big bad U.S.A. made him do it" argument. Bottom line. Castro has used imprisonment, torture and murder to press his people – he is not worthy of praise but only our contempt.




RealityLicks -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 12:13:16 PM)

I'm not completely convinced he has killed dissidents - he's always been so keen to export them to the US.  As for "lining people up against the wall", which I believe you referred to earlier, that's the means by which all executions are carried out there, not necessarily just those of political prisoners.




Marc2b -> RE: Fidel Castro Resigns (2/21/2008 12:32:40 PM)

quote:

I'm not completely convinced he has killed dissidents - he's always been so keen to export them to the US.  As for "lining people up against the wall", which I believe you referred to earlier, that's the means by which all executions are carried out there, not necessarily just those of political prisoners.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_v87/ai_4754854/pg_8





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