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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 6:35:08 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Phew... you had me worried. I thought you were serious at first.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 6:37:43 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Why do you take it that the institution of one system is to the exclusion of the other?

It'd be pretty naive to think either didn't exist.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 7:12:40 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Curious lord   The institutions are different.  Its like I am trying to use a + instead of a- in a math problem.  There are hookers and dancers....there are also trafficed sex slaves.   This is a thread about trafficed sex slaves.  And the fact that some people pretend it does not exist!!!!

I did not try to conflate the seperate institutions, AMW did.  Illustrating the thread point.  And I commented on it.

But some (not all) of those dancers and escorts, are just as much slaves

We just had a case here in Anchorage, semi voluntary---though the girls were paid in crack, not money, Beaten, and kept locked in cages in a crawlspace for a few days when bad.  They were escorts, and allowed to go alone on dates, and even to the mall and movies when behaving.  The Irony is that the guy sort of loved one of the girls, he picked her up at 15, and had even sent out of state (that means something extra in Alaska or Hawaii)to be with fammilly and get off drugs.  Never beat or caged her.  Told her to never do crack, but after she started he paid her in crack.  She is the one who testifyed against him as to how the other girls were treated, and got him convicted.

This shit is real, and the drug aspect of it hasn't even been touched on yet.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 9:07:25 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22083762/ There is always talk here about slavery, human slavery. It is, for many of us a large part of our world. Most of us know the difference between BDSM slavery and illegal non consentual slavery.A couple of weeks ago I read a post on this site saying that the 'other' slavery didn' exist. A post on how it must be the persons fault or an innate weakness that permits being enslaved. I am paraphrasing with these sentences but the basic parts are true. Another post declared shock that there could possibly (yes possibly) be anything like this going on. That slavery in the US ended with the Civil War. How can it be that there are those denying this? How can it be that there are those unknowing of this?Do people not want to know? I cannot fathom that kind of ignorance but maybe someone else can and in turn explain it to me. I'm hoping that some of those people read this. I've been to one of the clubs mentioned (yah okay it was many years ago) in Detroit.


Camille, the problem with that is when people find out that there is slavery around the world that they always, always say,...."Why doesn't the *U.S.* "do something" about it?"
Why doesn't Russia or China "do something" about it?
I have no problem realising that there is slavery in the world I just don't want my govt or Taxdollars involved that's all.
When people say, "we're not the world's policeman" I agree.
Besides that, people on the left tell us that the world hates the U.S. so why would we want to do anything to help people overseas?

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 9:41:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		And there's a lot of scams involved in that sexual slavery too.
The Immigration Attorneys" Association got legislation through the house and senate a number of years ago targeted at "sexual slavery".
They figured that for whatever reason these "victims" should be allowed to remain in the U.S. under a new category of visa called a "T" visa, t standing for "trafficker."
Of course that legislation will put $money$ in their pockets but they did it for "humanitarian" reasons of course, wink wink, nod, nod.
So now the Russian Mafia and other organisations smuggle in groups of young women usually 10-15 to a group who pay them to get them into the U.S. set them up in apartments made to look like hooker houses and the cops get the "anonymous phonecall."
Funny thing though the "pimps" are *never* caught just "the girls" and it's off to the local immigration office to go to the head of the line to get their "T" visas!
And they do it over and over again!
Do the math, if you get $15,000 for each "victim" and you transport 15 victims per trip that's a HELL of a lot of money to be made if you do only 4 trips per year!
With the increasing wealth in E.Europe and Russia they could probably charge $25k per victim.
If all you have to do is "say" that you're a "victim" what's stopping them from getting into the country?
That's why this kind of "legislation" doesn't work.
How long do you think it took the Russian Mafia to figure this one out, 4 minutes, 6 minutes?
And they're not the only ones doing it.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/19/2008 10:17:40 PM >

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 9:44:56 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Everyone that knows me RT will at one time or another call me Pollyanna or comment on my rose colored lenses but I still 'see' the world and wonder how can it be easier to close your eyes against this. Keeping yourself ignorant is (to me) a very wrong thing.


There is a difference between trying to see the world as good and succeeding at it.

And I would tend to agree that willful ignorance is sad, at best.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 9:51:09 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Some people on these boards seem to be oblivious to the realities of the world outside of our cosy comfort, and cannot get their heads around the fact that slavery is never a matter of choice, but an all too frequent occurrence.


Actually, it is always a matter of choice.

Whether that choice is one a person can reasonably be expected to make, is a different matter.

I would like to think nobody ever contended that slavery of this sort is easy, or that it always involves simple choices. While a fair number are being lured into it, there is a significant number being threatened and/or kidnapped. Some operations kill one of the girls to make the rest of them docile (after all, they don't make that much money off each of them, and the cost of someone busting them is far greater than the cost of losing one). Fear is a rather powerful tool for eliciting compliance from most people, and the rest tend to die.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 9:55:17 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

One thing to consider when reading these stories about sex slaves is that these women often lie and exaggerate about their experiences.


Correct. But that is definitely not the case for all of them.

Also, bear in mind that not every country has the setup you referenced.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/19/2008 10:00:52 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I got lot of beating of being "politically incorrect". If you calm down and think about it: we are not talking about children or mentally retarded people here  but adult often educated women. Idea that they are unable to stand up for themselves is totally ridiculous.


Not at all. It's pretty well documented that most people will be compliant under such circumstances.
It's also well documented that their mind will shift to survival mode after a short while.
Finally, for those in a personal slavery, capture-bonding is a notable fact.

Do you think you could stand the pressure?
If so, would you like to test your theory?
Someone here is sure to be into it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 4:50:57 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Some people on these boards seem to be oblivious to the realities of the world outside of our cosy comfort, and cannot get their heads around the fact that slavery is never a matter of choice, but an all too frequent occurrence.


Actually, it is always a matter of choice.

Whether that choice is one a person can reasonably be expected to make, is a different matter.



They have a choice between life or death; and to remain alive they need to ply to the coercion. If they choose to fight it, they die.

You are saying that human beings always have a choice, even when the choice is imposed upon them by others.

We have a different idea of freedom, Aswad.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 5:46:35 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Camille, it doesn't just exist in the US, it exists in Eastern Europe and also the UK - it is also ILLEGAL. Some years ago I found myself chatting with a guy that spends a considerable amount of the year in eastern europe where he has family. Later, in the conversation, after he'd become comfortable in talking with me he began telling me at how women are bought/sold for as little as a price of a cup of coffee - something he did fairly recent and prior to chatting with me when a person, in a cafe, noticed a book he was reading and they struck a deal - the man's girl for the book. Done deal. A human life with no say in how she gets to live it, bartered over. I was horrified, yet he explained 'that's just how it is', there is no such thing as rape, it happens, people move on with their lives. He did not see anything intrinsically wrong in his actions - "We cannot expect every country to abide by 'our' standards". What standards, I ask... especially when sex trafficking is rife in the UK, where young girls are coerced to come to the UK on the promise of being a model, gaining work at a job that provides good money, yet the realities are they never see outside of the scabby, filthy room they are thrown into and used horribly in ways no person should know about let alone be exposed to, their dignity non-existent and they have a very short 'shelf life'.

Watch Eastern Promises. And here's a news item regarding sex slavery in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6459369.stm 

Some people are blinkered to the horrors committed in the world, and while it's a little off topic, many refuse to accept the Holocaust did occur, along with ethnic cleansing in other countries.

What people have to realise is that in very poor countries, parents frequently sell their children for money so that they can afford to feed themselves, the few livestock they have, and the rest of the children, so one child (always a female) is expendable. A friend of mine, that's in the forces, has imparted accounts of girls as young as eight and nine being sold to a man who then has her used by groups of foreign businessmen. Culturally speaking, we're not all that different from one another, so to speak.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 5:52:14 AM   
camille65


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Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Oh believe me, I know it exists everywhere. I posted that 'somewhere' on this thread but my reason for emphasizing the US was twofold.The article I linked was about the US and this thread was sparked by comments elsewhere that it couldn't exist and that it was a 'new' problem. Both of those shocked me. I was hoping to understand how it is that people can remain so unaware of things.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 6:11:36 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		It is an interesting topic to debate, as for why people deny its existence, along with the holocaust, I  have my theories which flip back and forth between a simple case of self-delusion - if you give it a name, it exists, and then furthering some kind of political cause. In the US, the first amendment is supposed to protect the rights of EVERY citizen. Some people refuse to believe that the country they proudly serve is home also to the opportunists that think nothing of making money on the back of someone else's misery. The first amendment also protects the free speech of those that use it to further their political causes, despite how distasteful/inaccurate their views are which, in essence, is the correct thing to do b/c allt he while people continually espouse nonsense denying the existence of something so horrific it serves to keep such subjects highlighted and thusly exposed.

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The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 8:14:34 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Funny thing though the "pimps" are *never* caught just "the girls" and it's off to the local immigration office to go to the head of the line to get their "T" visas!
And they do it over and over again!
Do the math, if you get $15,000 for each "victim" and you transport 15 victims per trip that's a HELL of a lot of money to be made if you do only 4 trips per year!
With the increasing wealth in E.Europe and Russia they could probably charge $25k per victim.
If all you have to do is "say" that you're a "victim" what's stopping them from getting into the country?


http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/obtainlpr/oblpr071.htm

I guess hatemongering, denial, and pandering to bigotry just never goes away.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 8:25:03 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		According to that site:
Eligibility. Non–U.S. citizens who are admissible to the U.S. may be classified by the Immigration and Naturalization Service as T-1 nonimmigrants if they demonstrate that they
  • are or have been the victim of a "severe form of trafficking in persons";
  • are physically present in the United States, Samoa, the Mariana Islands, or a port of entry;
  • would suffer extreme hardship involving unusual and severe harm if they were removed from the United States; and
  • have complied with any reasonable request for assistance in a trafficking investigation or prosecution, or are less than 15 years old.

Which means those visas are granted providing certain criteria is met, so on that basis it's a little more than one person 'saying' they have been violated, there has to be corroborative evidence for their claims.

When a person has no direct exposure to such criminality, it's easy to see why they can maintain their cynicism.

_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 8:34:07 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Exactly, MissMorrigan. One might add that it takes little effort to read on and to find this:

quote:



The statute provides that a "severe form of trafficking in persons" includes trafficking for the purpose of obtaining or providing a person to engage in a commercial sex act in which the act is induced by force, fraud, or coercion or which is performed by a trafficked person who is younger than 18 years of age. It also includes recruiting a person through force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of subjecting the person to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery—all of which are defined specifically in the new rule. Under the regulations, victims must have been subjected to some form of force, fraud, or coercion to provide labor or services or to engage in a commercial sex act, except in the case of victims younger than 18 years of age who were induced to perform a commercial sex act.



Pretty informative for those out there who are still in denial that this sort of thing is happening. The USA aren't known for distributing permanent residency status willy nilly.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 8:53:43 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They have a choice between life or death; and to remain alive they need to ply to the coercion. If they choose to fight it, they die.


That is about what I said in the part you didn't quote.

quote:

You are saying that human beings always have a choice, even when the choice is imposed upon them by others.


I'm saying life isn't fair, and that we're sometimes faced with choices that don't seem like choices at all.

Choices are quite often imposed on us by others; some are more unpleasant than others.

quote:

We have a different idea of freedom, Aswad.


I should like to think so.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 9:03:34 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I'm saying life isn't fair, and that we're sometimes faced with choices that don't seem like choices at all.



This is why I am grateful for those who fight for justice - human rights lawyers, I tip my hat off to you.

quote:



Choices are quite often imposed on us by others; some are more unpleasant than others.



Maybe there are levels of choice then? Pure choice: when we are free to decide what action we shall take. Semi-choice: when we are offered a choice by a third party. And no choice: when we are forced to make a choice.

This third one is where you and I disagree: I consider it to be no choice at all.

Peace.



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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:10:59 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

According to that site:
Eligibility. Non–U.S. citizens who are admissible to the U.S. may be classified by the Immigration and Naturalization Service as T-1 nonimmigrants if they demonstrate that they
  • are or have been the victim of a "severe form of trafficking in persons";
  • are physically present in the United States, Samoa, the Mariana Islands, or a port of entry;
  • would suffer extreme hardship involving unusual and severe harm if they were removed from the United States; and
  • have complied with any reasonable request for assistance in a trafficking investigation or prosecution, or are less than 15 years old.


Which means those visas are granted providing certain criteria is met, so on that basis it's a little more than one person 'saying' they have been violated, there has to be corroborative evidence for their claims.

When a person has no direct exposure to such criminality, it's easy to see why they can maintain their cynicism.


That's why this program is rife with fraud, there are simply too many loopholes in it.
It was written by Immigration Attorneys to make money.
There was a case in Boston last year where the Boston Police got the "anonymous phonecall", about a dozen women from Russia in an apartment, no pimps same m.o.
If the Russian Mafia is involved in it you know there's a lot of money in it.
If they were running a sex slave ring that would expose them to a lot more chances of getting caught, wouldn't it? Just the "time" factor alone would be against them.
Then, it would take them a year or so to recoup their "investment."
Much easier to smuggle over groups of women, set them up in an apartment with mattresses on the floor and just leave.
Unless the police catch "pimps" it's probably a scam run by the Russian Mafia or other similar groups.
I don't think anyone is saying that these sex slave groups *don't* exist.
It's just a fact that it's *much* more lucritive to be running the "T" visa scams by far.
A LOT more money and much less risk!

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:17:52 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It was written by Immigration Attorneys to make money.



Really? To me, it looked like it originated from the U.S. Department of Justice.

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