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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:22:46 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It was written by Immigration Attorneys to make money.



Really? To me, it looked like it originated from the U.S. Department of Justice.


KittenSol, well it didn't.
There was an article in The Boston Globe in 2002 about it.
They interviewed an Immigration Attourny who helped write the legislation.
(Wouldn't you think that the Bar Association would step in and stop this due to "conflict of interest?")

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/20/2008 10:26:29 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:27:26 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Maybe there are levels of choice then?


No. But there are levels of freedom.

Some are freer than others.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:34:43 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		So we agree, Aswad :-) . The criminals involved in the cases we are discussing above abuse their power in order to take away other people's freedom, and to rob them of integrity and dignity, in order to profit from their bodies. Completely inhumane, and unacceptable. It's not because it has been going on since the dawn of time that we have to accept it; the criminals should be fought with all the might of the sword of justice.

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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 10:41:55 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		We do not quite agree. What we do agree about, is that this is contemptible, albeit for different reasons.

"You cannot enslave a free man; the most you can do, is kill him." - R. Heinlein (IIRC)

Their freedom is not taken away. They're just provoked into surrendering it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 12:21:27 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

We do not quite agree. What we do agree about, is that this is contemptible, albeit for different reasons.

"You cannot enslave a free man; the most you can do, is kill him." - R. Heinlein (IIRC)

Their freedom is not taken away. They're just provoked into surrendering it.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Whilst it's very possible for an individual to remain free within themselves even after they have been enslaved, there is no denying that their physical freedom has been taken away from them. I see that you are arguing from the point of view of spirituality. I am arguing from a perspective of law and justice.

PS: and morality.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/20/2008 12:22:20 PM >

_____________________________



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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 1:13:47 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Whilst it's very possible for an individual to remain free within themselves even after they have been enslaved, there is no denying that their physical freedom has been taken away from them.


Captivity is nothing unusual. The law employs it extensively.

That said, most people will surrender themselves and thus go from captivity to enslavement.

quote:

I see that you are arguing from the point of view of spirituality.


Not really. I'm arguing from philosophy, psychology, aesthetics and morality.

quote:

I am arguing from a perspective of law and justice.


If you give me a definition of justice, I can constrain my participation to that definition.

There have been many over the years. Genocide for an individual insult has been justice in some cultures. Equal violence has been justice in some cultures. Some cultures would see it as justice for a man who has killed his neighbour's son to have his own son executed. Some cultures see justice as ostracizing people who violate social norms. Vengeance seems to be the most common definition of justice at a personal level. Retribution seems to be the most common one at a societal level, sometimes coupled with restitution of some sort (usually tied to vengeance). We would see many of these as unjust today. Modern definitions of justice will be seen as unjust in the future. Without any definition of justice, it is pretty much an empty word, in that it can mean anything you want it to.

I do not argue from the perspective of law, as laws are mutable and can be basically anything. The laws in Iran probably don't seem very desireable to you. Similarly, I am not aware of any country whose laws I find conscienable, admirable or tolerable. From the perspective of law, there are places where ... ahem ... young girls can legally work in brothels, or even be sold to one. That doesn't make it inherently right. From the perspective of law, there was a time (not long ago) when you couldn't wash a restaurant kitchen in Chicago (IIRC) without having to choose which law to break. And international law allows US atrocities to go by with no issue. It also disallows human rights to be exercised in a manner that is contrary to the goals and opinions of the UN. Hardly a standard I'd care to adhere to.

Arguing from a moral perspective works for me.

The question being: which morals, how strictly applied, and with how much integrity?

Don't get me wrong, I'd as soon run over these guys as talk to them, and I don't dispute how this shit works.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 2:03:34 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It was written by Immigration Attorneys to make money.



Really? To me, it looked like it originated from the U.S. Department of Justice.


It did...Popeye is just spewing in the hopes no one else will notice that his so called massive money making scheme is capped at 5,000 T visas a year nationwide (out of at least 50,000 US victims), and that his anonymous phone call/local cops stories would not qualify under the existing law.

This is more of his 'Trannies don't belong on CollarMe', 'Hispanics should all be deported', 'terrorist  LaRaza', 'I was a federal agent with a 9mil that cuts though bullet proof vests' 'I can diagnose depression via the internet, now get off your butt and exercise' etc. ignorance mongering and minority bashing. 
Now his targets are the actual, forced victims of trafficking.... don't fall for his claims to be concerned about the massive fraud...he hasn't documented any, even though there is always some where help is offered.

And he think its all funny until someone calls him on his BS, then he claims to have been the victim of 'abuse' by being exposed.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 2:16:35 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Captivity is nothing unusual. The law employs it extensively.



This was disingenuous; you know I was addressing the issue of slavery, not of captivity in the wake of retributive justice (another matter altogether).

quote:



That said, most people will surrender themselves and thus go from captivity to enslavement.



I'm in two minds over whether I want you to explain this to me. 

quote:



Not really. I'm arguing from philosophy, psychology, aesthetics and morality.



None of which are mutually exclusive, and they tie in with the concept of justice pretty well. Especially when you bring in moral relativism, as you did below:

quote:



There have been many over the years. Genocide for an individual insult has been justice in some cultures. Equal violence has been justice in some cultures. Some cultures would see it as justice for a man who has killed his neighbour's son to have his own son executed. Some cultures see justice as ostracizing people who violate social norms. Vengeance seems to be the most common definition of justice at a personal level. Retribution seems to be the most common one at a societal level, sometimes coupled with restitution of some sort (usually tied to vengeance). We would see many of these as unjust today. Modern definitions of justice will be seen as unjust in the future. Without any definition of justice, it is pretty much an empty word, in that it can mean anything you want it to.



I couldn't disagree with you more; but I fear we might hijack Camille's thread with a long winded-conversation over morality, culture and human rights. There is a Declaration of Human Rights floating out there; and it's a pretty good start to those lawyers who fight on their behalf

quote:



Don't get me wrong, I'd as soon run over these guys as talk to them, and I don't dispute how this shit works.



With all due respect, I feel that's how you should have started your whole argument.

Shalom.

edited: fucked up quotes :-) .

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/20/2008 2:18:01 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 2:20:19 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

It was written by Immigration Attorneys to make money.



Really? To me, it looked like it originated from the U.S. Department of Justice.


It did...Popeye is just spewing in the hopes no one else will notice that his so called massive money making scheme is capped at 5,000 T visas a year nationwide (out of at least 50,000 US victims), and that his anonymous phone call/local cops stories would not qualify under the existing law.

This is more of his 'Trannies don't belong on CollarMe', 'Hispanics should all be deported', 'terrorist  LaRaza', 'I was a federal agent with a 9mil that cuts though bullet proof vests' 'I can diagnose depression via the internet, now get off your butt and exercise' etc. ignorance mongering and minority bashing. 
Now his targets are the actual, forced victims of trafficking.... don't fall for his claims to be concerned about the massive fraud...he hasn't documented any, even though there is always some where help is offered.

And he think its all funny until someone calls him on his BS, then he claims to have been the victim of 'abuse' by being exposed.


Twisty, I mean Alumbrado, I don't even know where to start with that pack of lies.
Should I just put you back on "Block?"
You've been behaving yourself for a while so I took you off "Block" but alas, you've fallen back into your old habits again.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/20/2008 2:24:55 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 3:30:52 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

There is always talk here about slavery, human slavery. How can it be that there are those denying this? How can it be that there are those unknowing of this?


I suspect it's for the same reasons most Americans hardly blinked when over 500,000 Rwandans were massacred in the mid nineties, and why many are still dumbfounded when they hear of the figures today. The ignorance our powerful western nation provides so often creates a pink bubble of disassociation between its denizens and the rest of the world, so it stands to reason many Americans wouldn't know human trafficking and sex slavery is one of the largest and most thriving underground industries in the world.

There are many, even in this day of broad information access, who seem to assume much and imagine little where matters like this are concerned.

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 3:42:00 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

This was disingenuous; you know I was addressing the issue of slavery, not of captivity in the wake of retributive justice (another matter altogether).


It's not, really. For that matter, would you consider this okay if these people were criminals, sold by their own people as "justice?"

quote:

I'm in two minds over whether I want you to explain this to me.


Enslavement is a state of the mind. Captivity is a state of the body.

quote:

None of which are mutually exclusive, and they tie in with the concept of justice pretty well.


Actually, without a concept of justice, it's hard to say that it ties in at all. But, no, they're not mutually exclusive.

quote:

I couldn't disagree with you more; but I fear we might hijack Camille's thread with a long winded-conversation over morality, culture and human rights. There is a Declaration of Human Rights floating out there; and it's a pretty good start to those lawyers who fight on their behalf.


It's a law of sorts, to be sure. But it's not the be-all and end-all of anything.

Feel free to take the disagreement to another thread, or to CMail, if you think it's off-topic.

quote:

With all due respect, I feel that's how you should have started your whole argument.


Which I pretty much did. I just noted that I have different reasons for it than you do.

Health,
al-Aswad..


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/20/2008 9:03:52 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

There is always talk here about slavery, human slavery. How can it be that there are those denying this? How can it be that there are those unknowing of this?


I suspect it's for the same reasons most Americans hardly blinked when over 500,000 Rwandans were massacred in the mid nineties, and why many are still dumbfounded when they hear of the figures today. The ignorance our powerful western nation provides so often creates a pink bubble of disassociation between its denizens and the rest of the world, so it stands to reason many Americans wouldn't know human trafficking and sex slavery is one of the largest and most thriving underground industries in the world.

There are many, even in this day of broad information access, who seem to assume much and imagine little where matters like this are concerned.


Amayos, you could say the same thing about sexual slavery; who in Russia or Eastern Europe who's *still breathing* hasn't heard about sexual slavery?
As for Rwanda most people saw that in the news that I know of.
I saw it, so what?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/21/2008 10:16:43 AM   
amayos


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From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Amayos, you could say the same thing about sexual slavery; who in Russia or Eastern Europe who's *still breathing* hasn't heard about sexual slavery?
As for Rwanda most people saw that in the news that I know of.
I saw it, so what?


Indeed, people hear things in passing, sterile blurbs on the news, by word of mouth, or from a column in a newspaper, but the full scope of many atrocities in the world are seldom realized, and I don't hold myself immune to this ignorance, either. Regarding the subject matter in this thread, I sense many have dismissed stories of human trafficking or slavery both abroad and in our own back yard as some sort of sad but ultimately inconsequential third world foot note or urban legend.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: The 'Other' Slavery - 2/21/2008 10:52:13 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well, I'm a "News Junkie" I read 2 or 3 Newspapers most days, listen to the radio and am online quite a bit and in Yahoo News a lot so I have a good idea of what's going on. But, I'm retired so I have the luxury of time.
And yes, every now and again there are stories about "sex trafficking" in the U.S.
One thing I wonder about is that if these "victims" were hoodwinked in Russia say by the traffickers how would that give them the right to "refugee" status in the U.S.?
The crime happenned in Russia not here.
I'm not real keen on that "moral responsibility" stuff.
It seems that people try to use that to get the U.S. to do (their) bidding.
Why don't they ever try and do that with China, Russia or,....Brazil?
Anytime I hear that phrase "moral responsibility" I automatically think "manipulation" or that someone's, "looking for something from the U.S." and guess what, I'm *never* wrong!
As I've said before on here the people in Washington are there to run our government, not a charity for foreign countries.
And, I don't want my Troops deployed all over the world or in Iraq. That's a holdover Reagan policy.
Imperialism will ruin any country. As it is now our debt is almost unfathomable.
I believe in assigning blame on those responsable for it.
I've heard people say that it's the U.S.'s "fault" that 6 million Jews died in WW2 because we didn't act "fast enough."
Of course no mention of the Nazis who actually did the damage.
That same type of thinking would absolve the Hutus and Tootsies who did all the killing and would assign the blame to a mythical "world community."
Sorry but the U.S. or any other country for that matter is not the "Global 911" or rescue service.
The blame lies with the people who think for whatever reason that we are.
Hey, I'm all for reactivating the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade" volunteers who'll pick up a rifle and go fight foreign countries internal conflicts for them!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/21/2008 10:56:33 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 74
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