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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 8:44:20 PM   
warmdomination12


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Other than the literal or historical inference as "property", I think the big difference between slave and sub is the 24/7 commitment, and basically turning over your life to another person. Even if its just an agreed for period of time.....week, month , year, etc.

Even though a person may be agreeing to be a gimp, domestic or sexual slave it is still a 24/7 situation with no time off to that commitment. The interests or activities are of individual tastes.

(to me, even in an agreed 24/7 slavery situation....no matter how underground, it still goes without saying that the slave still has the freedom of walking out whenever the need is felt)

(in reply to FemmeSensei)
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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 4:49:36 AM   
puella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Redoubt

A label we assign to something or someone is not the end of understanding them, just an attempt at a beginning.






Do you really feel that assigning a label (especially those which can not hope to ever really be concrete, such as slave vs submissive) for someone you do not know really effects how we understand them as people or does it do more towards arranging them in some sort of fantastical hierarchy or caste system to allow you to 'value' (or devalue) them?

That is my whole issue with this "issue".


< Message edited by puella -- 2/22/2008 4:50:28 AM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 5:06:24 AM   
denika


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That was a really well written post, I identify as many things, and our relationship is complex. Same as with Rob,  with him my titles are diffrent, I am his wife, his freind and companion, his equal.
In my D/s relationship,we  identify more with the leather community and at this time I identify as his submissive until I earn my collar and right to call myself slave to him, it's more than just how I identify in our relationship, which is as his slave, he is secondary only to my husband whom when bigger choices are made are discussed together. Somethings I still take ownership of. Anything pertaining to permanant marks are my choice as ultimitly this is my body, as much as I give it to Dale and Rob, it's still my skin and the fact they both respect that makes my life much happier. Infact just recently ( last saturday) I had a cutting of a wolf done on my shoulder, Rob drew it and Dale cut it in, it is a reflection of both of them to me.


Wolf's denika

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 3:33:29 PM   
Redoubt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Redoubt

A label we assign to something or someone is not the end of understanding them, just an attempt at a beginning.






Do you really feel that assigning a label (especially those which can not hope to ever really be concrete, such as slave vs submissive) for someone you do not know really effects how we understand them as people or does it do more towards arranging them in some sort of fantastical hierarchy or caste system to allow you to 'value' (or devalue) them?

That is my whole issue with this "issue".



I believe I said "an attempt at a beginning"... in order to reach somewhere, you have to know where you are. I can keep going with the pithy platitudes, or you can actually read what I'm saying.

"I like industrial music" - is a label, it provides a point of reference. A sort of "you are here" sticker. Where you go from there is going to need communication and thereby, (one hopes) understanding. If a girl comes to a dominant and says "I'm a slave" - its merely a starting point... where they both go from there depends on frank communication. As Lewis Carol put it:

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where --" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't much matter which way you go," said the Cat.
"--- so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation.
"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if only you walk long enough."

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 5:06:39 PM   
puella


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Hrmm... I really am not sure what you are on about....

You do realize that a pithy platitude is an oxymoron, correct?

Anyhow... the relevance of Alice and the Cheshire is lost on me in this context....  there is a vast difference between  identifying and understanding parts of yourself (and others) by walking through life with them and having them recognized (both by yourself and others) and using trite labels whilst completely changing their meaning (slave for instance is being bandied about  as some sort of uber cast of surrendered and submitted person, when in fact, a slave is not something anyone can be without having surrendered and/or submitted to someone else... thus signifying a relationship type, rather than a personality type) to suit some sort of need to compartmentalize and rank the worth of a person....rather than understand the person themself.

I am not saying that YOU personally do this, calm yourself.  However, if you have spent any amount of time on these forums or in the "scene" at all you know full well that there is this rather disgusting 'hierarchy' of servitude which is slapped around in the guise of 'understanding' ...when in fact it is just a way for people to say..."This one is more, or better or more profoundly xyz, than that one," or "My girl is more, better or more profoundly xyz, than that one."  (Of course implying that it was the dominant who is both a better judge of horse flesh and a better trainer.)  Simply, it is an imposed caste system which is integrally flawed and ominously perjorative in nature.

Its bull cocky.

Being a slave simply means you are owned and in a relationship of the dynamic where you have surrendered your rights and completely to anthers discretion.

Slave is no better, bigger or more profound than, submissive or kajira or bottom.  The relationship dynamic does not determine the worth of a person, nor a submissive person (nor a dominant for that matter).  Trying to rank chicks (and boys) by improperly used labels is not going to help you understand them or what their being submissive means to them.   I am afraid the only way to know and understand that is to invest the time, do your homework and actually work at getting to know the person.... you might learn some other wonderful things about them in the process... after all being submissive is just one small part of any person.

< Message edited by puella -- 2/22/2008 5:11:48 PM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 5:27:57 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The idea that a slave chooses once and a sub chooses every time I have found to be baseless. 


I agree... Logically the argument doesn't stand up.

My girls are slaves to me... and every time they take action to do as I will.. they are making a choice to do so... regardless of how remote.. it is possible that they could choose not to do.  Such a choice of disobedience results in the end of their slavery to me.  As result... they continuely make a choice to be my slave every time they follow my will.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/22/2008 5:38:58 PM   
petpete


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i was always wondering why i was shorting and sparking and banging.. i must be wired the wrong way... Anyone in here does rewiring?? i'm running out of fuses...

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/24/2008 3:38:57 AM   
Redoubt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Hrmm... I really am not sure what you are on about....

You do realize that a pithy platitude is an oxymoron, correct?
And given that you understand that, I'm sure you can appreciate the ironic usage on a topic such as this *smiles*.

*snip*....  there is a vast difference between  identifying and understanding parts of yourself (and others) by walking through life with them and having them recognized (both by yourself and others) and using trite labels whilst completely changing their meaning
Completely is far too strong a word here, in my opinion - unless you have someone most would term dominant calling themselves a slave. Submissive and slave for me fall into the same perceptive definition as confident and arrogant... but the Alice in Wonderland reference was trying to underline the importance of having as good an idea as possible where you are and where you want to go before setting out on a journey, either alone or with someone else. Labelling yourself so that people know where to start with you is merely the beginning, and your self label may change or evolve over time (maybe even completely) - and if you label yourself incorrectly, without understanding what the majority of people would expect from such a label can cause any journey to take longer to start on the road.

(slave for instance is being bandied about  as some sort of uber cast of surrendered and submitted person, when in fact, a slave is not something anyone can be without having surrendered and/or submitted to someone else... thus signifying a relationship type, rather than a personality type) to suit some sort of need to compartmentalize and rank the worth of a person....rather than understand the person themself.
This phenomenon, I agree, has become much more about "My subs better than your subs" or "My slave could submit your slaves ass", or even more ridiculously, "my understanding on what submission is far more than yours could ever be" - as human a condition in the search for the mate that is driven deep into our genes over millions of years of mate bonding - to be seen as the most desirable mate available, either to ward off challengers or to gain supremacy over another potential mate. But that same human nature constantly attempts to understand, clarify and classify knowledge and catalogue it away as neatly as possible. Hence we'll never rid ourselves of labels.

I am not saying that YOU personally do this, calm yourself.  However, if you have spent any amount of time on these forums or in the "scene" at all you know full well that there is this rather disgusting 'hierarchy' of servitude which is slapped around in the guise of 'understanding' ...when in fact it is just a way for people to say..."This one is more, or better or more profoundly xyz, than that one," or "My girl is more, better or more profoundly xyz, than that one."  (Of course implying that it was the dominant who is both a better judge of horse flesh and a better trainer.)  Simply, it is an imposed caste system which is integrally flawed and ominously perjorative in nature.
Agreed - its not pleasant, however I don't see it ever going away, if it isnt this, it'll be something else.

Its bull cocky.

Being a slave simply means you are owned and in a relationship of the dynamic where you have surrendered your rights and completely to anthers discretion.
And defining your labels ahead of time helps people understand more than just using the label - just as your definition has here.

Slave is no better, bigger or more profound than, submissive or kajira or bottom.  The relationship dynamic does not determine the worth of a person, nor a submissive person (nor a dominant for that matter).  Trying to rank chicks (and boys) by improperly used labels is not going to help you understand them or what their being submissive means to them.   I am afraid the only way to know and understand that is to invest the time, do your homework and actually work at getting to know the person.... you might learn some other wonderful things about them in the process... after all being submissive is just one small part of any person.
Agreed. But it's a lot simpler knowing where you both are at the beginning of that relationship.

Labels aren't going anywhere, neither is peer jostling in one form or another, while I agree totally with your sentiment on hierachial labelling being a crock (bull cocky I think you said), I think we need to find a better method to help people understand.
 
Be well.


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/24/2008 3:47:09 AM   
rubberpet


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I am a submissive male, but by turning my life over to Mistress, I became Her slave.  To me, the ones who do not identify as a dominant or switch are all submissives until they are taken posession of by a dominant.  Then, to me, that person can identify as a slave because they have become someone's personal property and owned.  Just my two cents, though.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/24/2008 3:53:58 AM   
Justme696


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I think this question is more interesting for Dom(mes) then for the sub/slaves.
A Dom/me needs to know in the beginning how to "treat" the slave/sub..what he or she accepts......even though it is just a name (slave/sub I mean)  ..it can be a first signal how to respond/act.

Like when you buy a car..if it is a sports car...you need to be gentle with the gass. So you want to know upfront if it is a fast car..so you don't get in problems.

Not sure if I explained it well enough....



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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/24/2008 1:03:05 PM   
Redoubt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

*snip*

Not sure if I explained it well enough....




On the contrary - a very good point :)

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/24/2008 3:50:33 PM   
SailingBum


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The only time I have this slave sub discussion is when I am considering someone.  And yes we have a discussion regarding my views on the topic.  After all  only my view will matter in reference to "us"  So all this slave sub discourse banal.

BadOne

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 6:42:35 AM   
UR2Badored


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

How's about a slub?


Is a "slub" aways served with bacon?

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 6:51:23 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


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quote:

Are you a slave or are you a submissive?

i'm me first ...then submissive

the rest is merely filling that describes me


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 6:58:40 AM   
phoenixinchains


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  i am the Pagan, Scot/French, Aries, bi, poly, artist, fire dancing, soft spoken, brightly haired, initially shy, highly caffienated, passionate, fair skinned, curvy, blue-grey eyed, tad obsessive, slave and totally devoted wife of eight years to my beloved Chaosforge.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 7:28:25 AM   
pinkwind


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Delivering such a long and at certain points well reasoned piece i find it a shame that the OP hasn't been back to take on board the responses and differing POV that have been written in reply, makes it almost feel like a pronouncement, a dictum, when in fact it should be anything but that. It certainly does not have the ring of a popular standpoint, but rather a long and convoluted personal opinion couched in such terms as to give it the voice of authority, This is certainly a subject worthy of debate, the absence of the OP makes such interchange difficult though, which is a shame.

What i would dispute strongly is the reliance on the marked differences between slave and submissive, and the reliance of the OP on those two entities being almost completely separately wired, two different beings in fact, when for a lot of us that wiring is intertwined to such an extent that we are both submissive and slave, although the degrees to which a person might be more one than the other vary wildly.

There is no one right interpretation of age old question of what is a submissive, what is a slave, and we who live our lives and take the time to compare them to others know only too well that there are as many differing dynamics as there are relationships. For me i am a submissive slave with masochist tendencies. We all have certain wiring that forms who and what we are, and for myself it depends on how the circuitry is completed by the partners within the relationship as to how much of the circuit is completed.

But, yet again, it's just another personal opinion, as is the OP.


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 8:14:58 AM   
julietsierra


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I'm not sure how to explain the difference between submissive and slave.

I've submitted. I've cared very much for the person I submitted to. I was committed to the process and the relationship. Once in it, I never spent a whole lot of time "deciding" over and over again to submit. This is just what I did and I was happy to do so. However, at no time in that situation, did I ever consider myself his slave. I don't know how things would have turned out if we'd had major problems, so I have no idea how I'd have approached those problems or him. So I certainly can't say unequivocally that that is the difference between slave and submissive.

Nearly six years ago now, I met the man who would become my Master. I didn't think I wanted to be a slave. In fact, I KNEW I didn't want to be a slave. I was wrong. I knew almost from the instant we met that if he wanted me, I'd be there till he told me to go.. but I still didn't consider myself his slave. As time went on though, I found that more and more, that's exactly how I saw myself - and that my protestations were merely an attempt to hold a bit of myself in abeyance (come to think of it, that word is a PERFECT definition of the difference between slavery and submissive.

According to Wikipedia, abeyance is when the right is not vested in any one person, but awaits the appearance or determination of the true owner. - (oh NO! there's that "true" word again!! But this time, instead of some general attributes to be placed on all, I'm taking it to mean what/who is true to me) As I came to see that we were "right" together, that we matched, that we had the same hopes, dreams and goals with respect to each other, I became less fearful of that slave word. Finally, I just admitted that slave is what I was and am and will be.

Anyway, during these past six years, we've lived. That means we've had good times, great times and times where things were more difficult. I've taken the difficult times and embraced them, and contrary to the popular view of a slave deciding only once to submit, I've used those difficult times to reaffirm to myself that I'm exactly where I want to be, and that I am who I want to be.

I can't imagine putting myself up in comparison to someone else who calls herself a submissive in some sort of competitive fashion. I am what I am. I can pretend I'm not, but that'd be silly. I am his friend. I am his lover. I am his most stalwart supporter in anything he chooses to do. I submit to him. I am his slave because quite frankly, I can't see myself as anything other than that and most of all, the term simply feels right to me when I think of us.

And, even though I am what I consider to be a slave, I choose to constantly re-evaluate my place, my position and the best part is that I get to take supreme pleasure in deciding yet again, over and over again, that I submit.

Oh.. And I find kind of humorous the whole idea that obedience is somehow a foregone conclusion in slavery. Obedience is a thrill of mine - an absolute thrill - and still, I find it difficult from time to time. Slave or no slave, sometimes it takes a great deal of internal conversation to help me through those moments.

I have no idea what the difference between slavery and submission is. I only know that I am his slave, and that for me, like goldilocks....it's juuuust right.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 5/24/2008 8:30:15 AM >

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 5/24/2008 8:33:28 AM   
Missokyst


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That, is exactly the problem I have with labels.  I will sometimes call myself a submissive who has been a slave but now bottoms.  Sheesh.. what a mouthful to state so that someone can catagorize you.  Mostly I say I am submissive only to someone who inspires it from me and to everyone else I am in no way submissive.  Another mouthful.  Unfortunately it is somewhat necessary on the net where people do not know you and may be seeking a partner.
I wish there was a better way.
I prefer the label I gave myself, "Andrea".
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Slave is no better, bigger or more profound than, submissive or kajira or bottom.  The relationship dynamic does not determine the worth of a person, nor a submissive person (nor a dominant for that matter).  Trying to rank chicks (and boys) by improperly used labels is not going to help you understand them or what their being submissive means to them.  
I am afraid the only way to know and understand that is to invest the time, do your homework and actually work at getting to know the person.... you might learn some other wonderful things about them in the process... after all being submissive is just one small part of any person.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 7/2/2008 11:42:46 AM   
SlaveSubtoserve


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...to this s. it means to be a  slave:

- 24/7/365-ish
- total obedience (though thoughtful when necessary and not blind)
- no negotiating with Mistress
- accepting severe treatments of pain, humiliation, degradation, objectification as She desires
- ostensibly and unconsciously focusing my all attention and thought possible on Her ( vanilla demands notwithstanding)
- putting Her best interests above mine always.....and still making it work
- She has control over all aspects of my life as/when She wishes

.....just my view anyways..

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 7/2/2008 12:07:51 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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I found this quite well-written, but I'm afraid that my experiences have led me to a point where I find it not quite so cut and dried as "one choice".

In our household, a submissive individual is trained and directed, and, if we choose a long-term relationship with them, they are considered a 'servant' of the house. We don't keep slaves, and mostly that is to get around this whole discussion of 'which is -whatever-... submissive or slave'. At the same time, we have a system by which a servant isn't considered a permanent member of the household until xhe's completed a trial period -- this assures that the individual in question is a good fit. During that period, the individual is trained in the way -we- do things. I don't care if they've trained at the most exclusive slave castle in Europe -- when they're in my house, I want things -my- way... and the only way to find out what that is is to be trained to our methods. We prefer a rather tidy protocol -- formal designations of household members, language limitations, and eye-contact limitations... especially for our newcomers... we may be considerably more lenient with servants who have been with us for a while. Once they are in the household, we dont' ask them whether they want to do a certain thing each time -- as long as they're in the house, they have agreed that they accept our rule. Now.. some of these individuals would -die- before they'd let themselves be called 'slaves', and a few others crave being called 'slaves'... but in our house, they're all 'servants' -- because that is what we choose to call them.

I've found that the reality of the situation for many submissive individuals is that, whether they are called a submissive, slave, or servant, the individual in that role must rededicate hirself to the submission each and every day -- even for the person who says "I give my life to you for ever and always', and who abdicates every aspect of living outside of what the dominant allows, that individual must -still- get up every morning, and -choose- to abide by the rules and structure of hir life. Even for those who say "I do this because it is what I -chose- to do.", they must still, on some level, choose each day to have that as their way of life. That's true for anyone, in any position. I have a job outside the home -- I earned it, and I've worked for it... but if I woke up every morning and said "Oh, I don't feel like going to work today.", but my boss still called me her employee, do you think anyone would care that she called me her employee -- heck no.. I'd be fired for failure to meet the obligations of my job... and I would have chosen that path by just choosing not to do the work. What I was called would be irrelevant.

Even during the times of actual slavery, that was the case. You could be sold, and being sold made you a slave, but being sold did not necessarily mean that you would obey your owner. Beatings did not necessarily mean that you would obey your owner. Sometimes, the slave would use sneaky, underhanded tricks like stealing the silver to get back at a hated owner -- and once again we see the passive-aggressive demeanor that happens when a slave is unhappy or unable to come to terms with hir submission.

If every day is a choice for the slave, and also a choice for the submissive, then what is it that differentiates one from the other -- The only thing that differentiates them is what one dominant individual chooses to call hir submissive colleague -- it is a matter of title only... everything else is internal, and can exist just as deeply or just as loosely (including choice) in the slave and in the submissive.

Firestorm


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