RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide

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Sinergy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/21/2008 5:31:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Sinergy: as I expect you are aware I am a compassionate man at heart and I have to admit that your posts are now giving me serious cause for concern. The only explanation I can think of is that working in the docks as you do your brains were addled when a Chinese container fell over and landed on your head. Please accept my best wishes for a speedy recovery he he he he he he he Get a grip, you seem to have lost your edge. I am confused, seeks. You would lie under oath and accept a lesser sentence for a crime you did not commit? or You would show a moral strength of character by sticking to your guns and accepting the sentence? Sinergy p.s. How are your attempts to insult me working out for you?

DomKen -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/21/2008 11:10:01 PM)
I'd like to see if we all agree on a few points: 1) Convicted criminals should not be subject to physical or sexual abuse. 2) A drug addicted convict should be unable to get more of his drug and should be assisted in getting clean. 3) A convict should be required to do some work and to devote some income to paying restitution to his victims or to offset his expenses. 4) If at all possible when a convict leaves government custody he should have received job skills training, including perhaps a period in a halfway house actively working, and some saved income so that the convict is not homeless and destitute. With modern technology I see no reason that most non violent offenders could not do their sentences under electronic monitoring under some sort of supervision to insure work etc. For some I do think incarceration is best, not as punishment but to protect society at large. Pedophiles and other violent offenders primarily, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that we'd be counting on ankle monitors and response times to protect children. But we also need to reform the way juvenile justice and foster care is done if we're ever to really get a grip on crime.

Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:14:57 AM)
Lots of 'solutions', still waiting for anyone to explain how this magic 'rehabilitation' wand is going to work. Seriously, if there are these known mechanisms that will reliably cause people to choose not to re-offend, then shouldn't we be using them before the first offense even occurs? [sm=mrpuffy.gif] Or someone could address the pertinent issue of profitablility and who benefits from a US prison population of 2 million.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:28:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 2) A drug addicted convict should be unable to get more of his drug and should be assisted in getting clean. Two things: 1. I think criminalizing a health problem is immoral. It makes no sense to me. 2. Be unable? Where are you talking about? Prison is the easiest place in the world to score any drug of choice. Once you realize that visitors would be very hard-pressed to bring contraband into a prison, it leaves only one option as to how the drugs enter the prison itself: the criminals are guarded by criminals. Our whole justice system is a sham anyway. The real criminals go free and earn millions a year (i.e. Bush, Cheney, Blackwater, Halliburton, ADM, Koch Industries, etc) and petty criminals pay a very high punishment price to give society the illusion of "law and order."

MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 2:57:23 AM)
The problem with repeat offenders is that clearly incarceration does not work, it's just another 'process' to their dysfunctional lives and I think that is the part which needs changing, repeatedly throwing them in prison is ineffective in curtailing their propensity for criminal acts. It does not help that we have 'estates', there are prime examples such as Thamesmead, the moment we start segregating people into classes we are in effect sentencing them to a specific way of life, that's not to say ALL people on estates are dysfunctional, but sadly, many are. Having worked in social care (I am not a social worker) in the UK for years, often on estates in London, and also in West Sussex, it seems councils tend to house problem families within the one area, same with those who have mental health, substance abuse issues, etc... That is one area that needs drastically restructuring. quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Point taken Phil but surely the majority of people in the UK have already been through the system, with fines, community service, asbo`s ect ect, before ever being jailed. The lighter sentence hasnt been any sort of deterrent in most cases. I dont see it doing any good to say prison is a failure, because if that has failed, so have all the other means of punishment that have preceded it. ...i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand. Second point, even if the number is 100% it's still meanigless unless we can compare to the number of people for whom the lighter sentences did work.

MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 3:00:25 AM)
How about prisons providing those much needed apprenticeships that were done away with decades ago, which deprived many non-academics of opportunities to carve a career for themselves? quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Popeye has put his finger on a basic problem. People who have been to prison need help in re adjusting into the world when they are released. This useful approach is better than all the lamentable responses offered by the doe eyed Liberals. If public money is to be spent on anything, offering ex prisoners employment is far more sensible than trying to "kiss them better" before and while they are in prison. The major problem then is to somehow ensure that the jobs they are offered dont compete with those available to the law abiding. If they reject this offer, take the "easy" option of criminality then they should expect to go back to prison for a very long time indeed.; Just like to add that I think super max prisons for long term inmates are an abomination and I should think unconstitutional.

MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 3:13:51 AM)
While no picnic, which is the point, people do adjust and given the backgrounds of many that repeatedly go through the system, prison is often a much more 'stable' (I'm sad to say) environment. People NEED opportunities, a structure to work with, motivation to better themselves. Trade education is an excellent idea, such as offering apprenticeships to prisoners who have little opportunity to learn a trade outside. At least, upon their release, they will have skills necessary to earn a living, and of course they need support, work contacts etc... quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 The problem with prisons is that they are no longer a deterent...they are more like a hands on myspace. Criminals go in and make more contacts, have the ability to continue running any outside illegal ventures, get free cable and food along with gym privileges and college education if they actually choose. I think that chain gangs should be brought back for those beyond reform and for those with some hope...trade education. Teach them something legal to do.

Politesub53 -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 3:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Lots of 'solutions', still waiting for anyone to explain how this magic 'rehabilitation' wand is going to work. Seriously, if there are these known mechanisms that will reliably cause people to choose not to re-offend, then shouldn't we be using them before the first offense even occurs? [sm=mrpuffy.gif] Or someone could address the pertinent issue of profitablility and who benefits from a US prison population of 2 million. I agree on the first point, more should be done at the Juvenille stage to provide education and training, allowing offenders to get work on release. Im not sure what you are implying about profibility, do you suggest that people are imprisoned just so others can make money ?

Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 4:09:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Today, Jonathan King was quoted as saying, "“My time inside has been some of the best in my life. “Terrific companionship, education, revelations about the world. No taxes, no traffic jams, no mobiles.” To those of you who do not know of Jonathan King, here is a link that will explain the man better than I can: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_King Apparently, during his stay at the Majesty's request, he is not liable to pay taxes on his earnings which include monies from royalties. If a person is still able to profit from earnings while being inside, why aren't they privy to paying taxes as well? This, I do not understand. This isn't my main query though and Jonathan King's comments just highlight what I can see as a growing concern regarding our prisons in the UK/US and we're long overdue a reform. My question is: If you were to have a hand in the reforms, what would you change and why? Reforms, yes reforms are needed, but as I see it two groups of prisoners need change. Those groups are the economic prisoner, those who have not paid their poll tax or TV licence and the violent prisoners. Economic prisoners should not be in with all the other groups, to me, an idea would be a sort of debtors prison where an offender is placed to work. Work to pay off their debt at a miniscule wage rate. Just to make the experience worthwhile, the economic prisoner should out of their miniscule wage pay for their bed and board and any other luxury they desire.That way, within reason, they can stay as long as they want. If they end up liking their stay and luxuries, this can be curtailed by removing luxuries or increasing the cost until there is no option but to get out asap and not look back. Violent prisoners, murders and the like and for that matter rapists and paedophiles, them I have no respect for , they are of no use to society and even a danger to it.They should be punished accordingly, they have removed the human rights of their victim and so by right should lose theirs. The old prison system of hard labour, crap food,crap living conditions, humiliation and restraint. Hey, they can even have natty little uniforms like the old chain gangs and talking of which, bring those back, working in public in chains has got to have a good humiliation factor, oh, prison guards armed and shoot if necessary. The rest of the prison population, just make it not so comfy and if they have a private TV, they have to get a licence for it and pay taxes.Education, well Job retraining would be better, something so they can get out to work when they get out. If they want education in the form of degrees and all that, then they can do that when they get out. Perhaps in this country we should have an available tariff listing what punishment to expect as a minimum for crimes committed, no ifs or buts, do the crime and you know what is coming. The Arabs I believe have a similar system, perhaps why they have smaller incidences of crime than we do.

kittinSol -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 4:15:27 AM)
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kittinSol -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 4:22:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Violent prisoners, murders and the like and for that matter rapists and paedophiles, them I have no respect for , they are of no use to society and even a danger to it.They should be punished accordingly, they have removed the human rights of their victim and so by right should lose theirs. The old prison system of hard labour, crap food,crap living conditions, humiliation and restraint. Hey, they can even have natty little uniforms like the old chain gangs and talking of which, bring those back, working in public in chains has got to have a good humiliation factor, oh, prison guards armed and shoot if necessary. Human beings should be treated with humanity - whatever you think they did. First, what you're talking about smacks of vengeance and not of justice; secondly, France had a system similar to the one you are pining for. It was called the 'bagne'. The conditions were horific and many innocent men died as a result of illness, starvation, and violence. Considering the number of wrongful convictions that occur, I'm surprised anyone would argue in favour of a system that has no other aim than to make a person suffer. Why not torture them on a regular basis, while you're at it?

MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 4:39:19 AM)
Now that's what Stephan referred to as 'Retribution'. Aneirin, have you watched the Ross Kemp on Gangs series at all? My boy d/l it for me to view, what struck me in nearly all episodes I watched is that there is a distinct lack of opportunity for these persons, that they seemed just desperate boys lost without guidance and stability and resorting to the only thing they know how - territorial fighting and all that comes with it, drugs, crime, etc...

Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 5:18:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Violent prisoners, murders and the like and for that matter rapists and paedophiles, them I have no respect for , they are of no use to society and even a danger to it.They should be punished accordingly, they have removed the human rights of their victim and so by right should lose theirs. The old prison system of hard labour, crap food,crap living conditions, humiliation and restraint. Hey, they can even have natty little uniforms like the old chain gangs and talking of which, bring those back, working in public in chains has got to have a good humiliation factor, oh, prison guards armed and shoot if necessary. Human beings should be treated with humanity - whatever you think they did. First, what you're talking about smacks of vengeance and not of justice; secondly, France had a system similar to the one you are pining for. It was called the 'bagne'. The conditions were horific and many innocent men died as a result of illness, starvation, and violence. Considering the number of wrongful convictions that occur, I'm surprised anyone would argue in favour of a system that has no other aim than to make a person suffer. Why not torture them on a regular basis, while you're at it? Good idea, treat violent individuals with fluffy gloves, I am sure they will laugh in your face for it. Given what there is now, there is no detterant and having been on the receiving end of violent crime, I believe my view is justified. Wrong is the system that gave everything to the poor poor offender, free legal aid, a tax payer paid for Barrister in court, compensation for all his family for the stress of it all. I had no legal representation, I could not afford it and I was working. I am still fighting for my criminal injuries claim three years later and still live with the complications of the crime. Nope, violent offenders might be human beings as a species, but to me, they have no place in civilised society and so they do not do their crime again, they should be adequately deterred. A soft approach is not working, so perhaps a harder approach has to be considered. Oh, one thought about murder, is the French crime of passion, that I think should be taken into consideration here as is in france. The Yorkshire ripper, the Moors murderers, the Soham child killer, no, I feel nothing for them and to think of the apparent luxury they have in prison when they have deprived other innocent people of their lives, it gives me a bad taste at the thought. Oh and torture, that for prisoners is not needed, but neither is the mental torture of the victim's loved ones at the prospect of early release and reports of the cushy existance the killers have in prison.

kittinSol -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 6:12:01 AM)
Thankfully, we have moved on from your way of thinking, Aneirin. What you're dreaming of is a reaction to progress.

thompsonx -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 7:08:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I feel its incredibly dangerous to release a child sex offender who clearly seems to have found his time in prison rather agreeable. I wonder if he'll be on a plane to Thailand or Vietnam in the near future? E LadyE: I had heard about the "tours" to Thailand but did not know that Vietnam did this sort of thing also. It seems so out of keeping with their professed goals. Is this just an opinion based on geographical propinquity or do you have some hard data to substantiate this. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 7:17:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 The problem with prisons is that they are no longer a deterent...they are more like a hands on myspace. Criminals go in and make more contacts, have the ability to continue running any outside illegal ventures, get free cable and food along with gym privileges and college education if they actually choose. I think that chain gangs should be brought back for those beyond reform and for those with some hope...trade education. Teach them something legal to do. Aileen: It would appear that your knowledge of prison is limited to coffee table journalism. I am not suggesting that you break the law so as to acquire a first hand understanding but perhaps some volunteer work amongst them might give you a little different perspective. thompson

DomKen -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 7:40:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen 2) A drug addicted convict should be unable to get more of his drug and should be assisted in getting clean. Two things: 1. I think criminalizing a health problem is immoral. It makes no sense to me. 2. Be unable? Where are you talking about? Prison is the easiest place in the world to score any drug of choice. Once you realize that visitors would be very hard-pressed to bring contraband into a prison, it leaves only one option as to how the drugs enter the prison itself: the criminals are guarded by criminals. Which was my point. The present system is screwed up for a lot of reasons and may not be repairable. A lot of it comes down to prison employees, some small percent definitely bring in drugs to sell to convicts. Some percentage turn a blind eye to violence and sexual assault.

caitlyn -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 7:59:29 AM)
About half the things that land you in jail, should not land you in jail. There should be a level one prison system, with emphasis on rehabilitation and job training. There should be a level two prison system for serious offenders and those unable to reform via the level one system. This should be hard time with no attempt at rehabilitation.

RealityLicks -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 8:54:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee I'd disagree with your assessment of what I said. Presently the length of terms (in custody or under supervision) are limited by the allowable amounts for specific crimes. Inmates can elect to serve their entire incarceration without treatment, at which time their release is obligatory, regardless of their suitablilty. The difference in what I am saying is that once a crime of a certain seriousness has been committed or a pattern of chronic offending is established, inmates should be incarcerated indefinitely. This is not as punishment. It is firstly to protect the public and secondly to remove the present incentive for chronic offenders to calculate terms of incarceration as a cost of doing business. They get increased liberty, in stages, when they demonstrate the skills and mindset to accept the responsibility which goes with that liberty. There is no simply waiting for your time to be up. Z. Yeah, I got what you meant. What I was trying to say was that, barring indefinite sentences, judges have those sorts of powers already. You show much more faith than I have in the rehabilitation programmes. Leaving aside the near-impossibility of making them fair - assuring each case was awarded parole on a level playing field - I still think your idea, while a brilliant blue-skies notion, wouldn't solve the problem. (And yes, typing "blue-skies" does make you wince, don't try it at home). I cannot imagine any rehab which would prove 100% effective. Some parolees would always backslide but having once completed the rehab programme could easily do so again, incentivised as they would be by a chance for freedom. And if once, why not twice? Another question would be where to draw the line on which crimes merited imprisonment. Inevitably, that line would be drawn based on what society could afford and not on which crimes merited punishment.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 9:51:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Which was my point. The present system is screwed up for a lot of reasons and may not be repairable. We agree then. Incarceration is just a kind of scapegoating.

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