RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (Full Version)

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Leatherist -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 9:58:40 AM)

Current prison systens are based on an outmoded christian judeo concept of peneace and punishment as behavior modification. Based purely on the recidivism rate, this methodology is innefficient and counterproductive.

I feel that behavior modification needs to come from realizing why the person in question is in trouble, and doing our best to modify thier circumstances and attitudes with education,career training-and a change of venue when they are released. Including having a job and housing waiting for them, when they graduate from the program. I know this may seen unfair to those who feel that the criminal should suffer-but look at it this way. I would rather have someone staying out of troble and contributing to the economy-than paying to warehouse them to come back and commit more crimes.

Warehousing should be reserved for individuals who have proved themselves a danger to the public, and beyond salvaging.



Zensee -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 10:14:10 AM)

RL - There is a huge difference between a maximum sentence and an indefinite sentence. Judges do not presently have the power of indefinite sentences so equating the two is not a rebuttal. And I'd hardly typify me advocating indefinite incarceration for certain inmates as "blue-skies" idealism.

Who set the bar at 100%? effectiveness? If that's the standard we might as well throw the doors of the prisons open or weld them shut. An all or nothing attitude is defeatist and unrealistic. The issue isn't about solving the problem, it's about improving our approach and results with meaningful changes. Not ones that make the biggest profit for the prison industry.

There will always be a small proportion of criminals who resist any attempt at reform and pose a permanent threat to society. (That's in part what the indefinite sentence is about.) A relatively small number of chronic backsliders should not prevent us offering realistic attempts at reform. The lives of serious criminals do get turned around but it takes comprehensive, dedicated education and followup. You can't just drop them outside the gates with no skills and no new, healthy community for support.

Anything less is just writing them of and pretty much assures they will be back.


Z.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 10:19:33 AM)

Leatherist, you made some good points. It used to be a stigma if a person was incarcerated for crimes and they faced even further hardships once they were released as it was common for a criminal to be ostracised by his/her community. In more recent decades, however, this is not the case, I think that's largely due to the ever-expanding population so more people are exposed to ex-offenders.

I think prison, while a necessary inclusion in our society, needs to be a last deterrent when all efforts of rehabilitation have been exhausted and I believe that instead of treating 'symptoms' of behaviours, one needs to examine the cause of it as clearly there's going to be little change in a person's overall behaviour if they are going to be replaced in the same circumstances - I'm referring to repeat offenders.

Instead of ploughing millions (likely billions) into prison 'ships', that money would be better served re-educating offenders, giving them some kind of hope of change once they are released to help lessen opportunities for reoffending.

The kids my son hung around with were typical scallies, always up to 'no good'. Yet, deep down, they were (still are) really good guys. But having bummed the education system, working minimum wage jobs (the fortunate ones) and grouped up on housing estates that, in my opinion, encourage and foster negativity in people, it's easy to see why they revert back to 'type' once they return home. They don't like their lives, but they know of no alternative.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist
Current prison systens are based on an outmoded christian judeo concept of peneace and punishment as behavior modification. Based purely on the recidivism rate, this methodology is innefficient and counterproductive.

I feel that behavior modification needs to come from realizing why the person in question is in trouble, and doing our best to modify thier circumstances and attitudes with education,career training-and a change of venue when they are released. Including having a job and housing waiting for them, when they graduate from the program. I know this may seen unfair to those who feel that the criminal should suffer-but look at it this way. I would rather have someone staying out of troble and contributing to the economy-than paying to warehouse them to come back and commit more crimes.

Warehousing should be reserved for individuals who have proved themselves a danger to the public, and beyond salvaging.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 10:57:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Lots of 'solutions', still waiting for anyone to explain how this magic 'rehabilitation' wand is going to work.



Seriously, if there are these known mechanisms that will reliably cause people to choose not to re-offend, then shouldn't we be using them before the first offense even occurs? [sm=mrpuffy.gif]



Or someone could address the pertinent issue of profitablility and who benefits from a US prison population of 2 million.


I agree on the first point, more should be done at the Juvenille stage to provide education and training, allowing offenders to get work on release.

Im not sure what you are implying about profibility, do you suggest that people are imprisoned just so others can make money ? 


I'm suggesting that the US prison population has rocketed to 2 million people at the same time that certain individuals and corporations have gotten very wealthy from that, while the intake portion has been 'refined' through politics.
Do we suppose that there is no connection?  (Apparently similar things are occuring in the UK.)

And as far as education and some sort of causal link to crimininality, how do we explain the Kennedys, Keating, Lays, et al?

(Or this guy and the thousands like him)


Some educated/skilled people commit crimes, and other people manage to avoid doing so., Even though an education is already mandated for all, we still have overflowing prisons.

So 'give them an education in prison and they will be rehabilitated', still sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Side note...I think it is no doubt a good use of the time while someone is in prison, to revisit the educational opportunities that were probably bypassed when they were given to the population at large....I just don't agree that it will rehabilitate a significant portion, any more than giving them a bird will.



philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 10:59:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

60% of offenders released from prison were reconvicted of another offence. 


...yes, we agree that recidivism is a problem....

quote:

58% of offenders who received a probation order were reconvicted.


...so, what you're saying is that for 42% of those who got probabtion it works.....

quote:

42% of offenders who began a Community Service Order were reconvicted of further offences. 


...so for the majority (58%) CSO's also worked......

quote:

40% of offenders who received fines were reconvicted of further offences.


...fines are even more effective, working in 60% of cases..... 

quote:

53% of offenders under 21 years were reconvicted


....yup, 47% didn't reoffend...but as we both agree recidivism is a problem and it appears worse for those under 21.

.....so from the figures you quote it seems that lighter sentences do work, roughly half the time. That's a long way from 100% and thats a problem........but it doesn't back up your claim.



caitlyn -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 11:59:19 AM)

This discussion will soon turn in to a battle between people favoring rehabilitation, who seem to feel as if it can work 100% of the time ... and those who oppose it, who seem to feel it doesn't work 100% of the time.
 
The truth, is a shade of grey. The only logical system is one that offers a serious and well considered second chance ... and a cell for those unwilling to accept it.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:03:15 PM)

I'd settle for someone simply explaining how this 'rehabilitation' works, instead of slinging labels like 'pro' or 'anti'. 



seeksfemslave -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:03:39 PM)

Those that oppose the rehabilitative approach do so because they know it doesnt work.
Its jobs for the boys/girls scam IMO.



CuriousLord -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:04:09 PM)

I'd want protection for prisoners from others.  Oversight for the actions of guards (as I hear that they can turn rather sadistic).  And motivation for prisoners to learn and do better.. perhaps something similar to a massive Philosophy seminar?  (Karana knows the Philosophy majors could use an application for their degree, so it's not like we'd need to draw teachers away from schools to have such seminars.)

Edit-  Ah, the above can be ignored then.  I thought this was one of those idealogical, "What should we do with prisons to make them better?"  I guess this thread's a bit more practical in sentiment.

Well, let's see.  It's difficult for me to write something short about it.  I mean, largely, I would be harsher on criminals.  Still, I disagree with some crimes even being crimes and which crimes are worse than others, so if I were to propose harsher measures, it'd have to be specific.  (Elsewise, I'd be advocating harsh punishments for people who I don't even think should be punished in the first place.)

Malicious people.. those that just like to cause suffering.. I'm not sure if I'd have a problem with them being executed for relatively minor crimes.  Assault, rape, whatever.

Mentally handicapped people.. I'd have them in environments in which their handicap wouldn't effect others if it can't be corrected.  What such an environment might be would be dependent on the offender.  If they can't understand property rights, then they should be in a position in which they can't steal.  If they can't understand assault as being a bad thing, then they should be in a position in which they can't conduct assaults.  If they can't understand that molesting hurts a child, they shouldn't be in a position in which they can molest children.  If they can't understand murder is a bad thing, they shouldn't be in a position in which they can kill people.  Etc.
-Such people would be liable to lose rights and priveledges which may conflict with such things.

Desperate people.  I'm not sure what to do with them in general.  It'd be very case specific.

---

I'd point out that this is not something I've given more than a second's thought to, as criminal behavior is a very minor concern in my life.  I mostly lock my doors and make sure I can defend myself, and I live in pretty good areas, so I'm not always so up-in-arms about sterotypical crimes.  I may have a more congruent system of thought developed later; these are mostly arbitrary thoughts.

I do largely disagree with the current system, but it strikes me as surviving through lack of a better proposal.



caitlyn -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:21:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
I'd settle for someone simply explaining how this 'rehabilitation' works, instead of slinging labels like 'pro' or 'anti'. 


That's easy enough.
 
A percentage of people that find themselves in the system, don't really want to be criminals. They are people caught in bad situations, that have no way out. NorthernGent once made a comment on here, that his Brother mentioned to him that America was no place to be in you are down on your luck ... a statement I agree with. People run afoul here, and find themselves in situations not of their own choosing, with no real way out.
 
So, rehabilitation may take many forms. It may be behavior based. It may be related to offering job skills. It may even be relocation to another place. The key, is to determine who really wants that second chance, and not waste resources on those that don't.
 
If we would stop spending tax dollars trying to rehabilitate three-time sex offenders, we would have a lot more money to spend helping the kid on the street that robbed a store, because he finally became more hungry than afraid of getting caught.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:33:35 PM)

Well, I'll wait for some science to come along and explain how any of those things you mention have a casual link to rehabilitation.  I'm sort of big on knowing how something works, instead of taking it on blind faith that it 'just will' work.

Until then, I will consider them as possibly good to do, but I won't indulge in magical thinking that they will rehabilitate any particular person.[;)]



caitlyn -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:37:25 PM)

I committed a crime as a juvi ... and graduate in a few months.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:39:31 PM)

So education actually causes crime?[:D]



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:48:22 PM)

Seriously, until people have a workable idea as to why some high school dropouts live a peaceful non-criminal life, and others don't...as well as why people with education, money, etc. do commit crimes, we are just shooting in the dark on rehabilitating anyone.

I think I've mentoned Otnow -Lewis repeatedly in these discussion, has anyone bothered to read her work?
Her observations on closed head injuries and violent career criminals might be a good starting place.
The Patrick/Hare theories of partial psychopathy are also interesting, although they lead toward some disturbing conclusions... Such as, perhaps criminality is an evolutionary advantage?

Speaking of which, there are several integrative criminologists who take the basic premise that crime is a normal part of life, and look for a nexus of several causal factors indicating that a threshold has been reached, instead of trying to label 'the cause' of crime.



caitlyn -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:48:59 PM)

I was offered a second chance, and way out of a very bad situation. If details are useful to you, please feel free to contact me on the other side.



CuriousLord -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:49:14 PM)

People commit crimes for different reasons, Alumbrado.  Rehabilitation can be education, which does work in some cases.

Rehabilitation can be as simple as teaching someone that what they've done wasn't so innocent.  Or breaking them out of the addiction that caused them to to be so compelled to do things that they wouldn't otherwise do.

PS-  Or teaching people other ways of doing something.  Who wouldn't steal from Wal-Mart if they and their family would starve to death if they didn't?  Still, give those people another way to live life, they can be productive members of society and still get what they want.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 12:56:40 PM)

quote:

...why some high school dropouts live a peaceful non-criminal life, and others don't...as well as why people with education, money, etc. do commit crimes...
....there are several integrative criminologists who take the basic premise that crime is a normal part of life, and look for a nexus of several causal factors indicating that a threshold has been reached, instead of trying to label 'the cause' of crime.



quote:

People commit crimes for different reasons, Alumbrado.  Rehabilitation can be education, which does work in some cases.


Thanks for restating what I just said, as though you came up with it.[8|]

If there were a known cause for crime and a known method of rehabilitation ( as there are for rehabilitiating say, sports injuries), you could scientifically explain how it works, or link to a scientific reference explaining it.

As long as you are working off superstition, all you have to 'debate' with are the usual 'blind faith' rhetorical tricks.



CuriousLord -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 1:03:12 PM)

You'd argue that the idea that some people rather steal food than work for it when given the decent oppurtunity isn't scientifically proven?  Or are you arguing that everyone's aware of how to find decent work for things that they might steal for in its absense?



Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 2:43:16 PM)

Youth crime is a large part of crime comitted and a 'political' problem. Whatever may be thought of in these forums , elsewhere and in the places that matter, youth crime will always occur until some real understanding or a deterant is found.

I accept youths and young adults may commit crime both petty and more serious as a result of their perceived lack of future and just plain boredom.

I was a youth at one time, and I was also bored, but not bored unough to be involved with crime. I remember those years, the judgement by my supposed betters saying that I would amount to nothing etc, as I like so many other youths of now and the past, disregard other people's views as they were against my own and the thought, 'what the hell did they know anyway'.

But I ask myself why was I not involved in crime, what was my deterrant. I was bored, skint and envious of others and with a feeling of no hope for the future, just as I suppose is similar with the youth of today. But what makes them different from me?

Thinking about it now, there was one place I would not go with my activities, that is anywhere I perceived as hurting others, I basically had a strong feeling for what is right and wrong. True, I may have done some things, but I always drew back at some point, I knew my limit as to how far I could go.

Right from wrong, I was aware based upon my own feelings.

So, do youth now have a sense of what is right and wrong, do they have limits as to how far they can go, or is it just a free for all, do what you want and bugger the consequences.

Maybe the consequences are the problem, my youth, that could have been Borstal, a well publicised sin bin for the hopeless.I was not going there.

So maybe the key is fear, I feared Borstal.

Is there anything now like that, is there anything that would cause a fear and there be a deterrant.

Fear was my deterrant, I knew there were powers more powerful than mine that I could eventually answer to and those powers would not be friendly, fluffy and nice.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/22/2008 5:54:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

You'd argue that the idea that some people rather steal food than work for it when given the decent oppurtunity isn't scientifically proven?  Or are you arguing that everyone's aware of how to find decent work for things that they might steal for in its absense?


I asked for a scientific explanation as to how this 'rehabilitation' everyone is talking about works.  

Making the above straw argument is not a scientific explanation, is it?



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