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RE: How do i ask? - 9/19/2005 8:25:07 AM

nella

Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
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While negative reinforsments might have their uses, pisitive one is often mutch more effective, on animals, on children and yes even on submissives.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 4:09:11 PM

naughtydreams

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

I guess I'm gonna be the one to catch it for this but...I don't reward through a pat on the head...doing the things I expect done...if something is of exceptional quality then I'll respond...

I work..every day...as hard as I can...I do more than I should...and I teach others how to do their job as well.....I don't expect nor do I ever think about my supervisor telling me...good job...why?..because he expects this from me...

my reward and satisfaction come from me knowing that whoever passes through me...will be as good as he can be...and when it's time for a performance review...I see it expressed in advancement and or pay increases...

I don't work for admiration of others...I work for my own self-gratifaction...I'm happy doing what I do..and I enjoy doing it every day...do I sometimes get tired and wonder why I continue...of course...but I know I will ...until that day comes I find no enjoyment in doing it any more...

I structure my jobs to control the things around me...and I structure my home in the same way...I control the things there as well...

your reward and satifaction will come in me expressing how well you serve me in the things I do to show my pleasure in all you do...it may be a day..or several weeks before I acknowledge what you've done...but when I do...in that single moment would you not understand my feelings toward you and all you do...

I'll say this for the bilizillionth time...we all have a different way of living this life...some show it all the time..some less...and some not at all...but if you're with us...don't you know us as we are..and know how we express ourselves to you...

Fury

Ok, I like to read the posts here, I feel I've gained quite a bit of insight into how others see this working for them, and I've never posted, but this topic hits pretty close to home for me. "don't work for the admiration of others" "work for my own self-gratification" Really? So you don't get paid? You don't take home a paycheck for the work you do? You get nothing whatsover for your time and effort? I find that hard to believe, were that the case, you'd be doing charity, not work.

Why is it too much to expect something in return? That pat on the head, is the greatest thing ever, and the only reason I have for doing what ever menial task that needs done. I need his praise, I love to see the look in his eyes, and hear it in his voice, that he appreciates what I've done. I don't think that's too much to ask. If I've spent all day cleaning house, and then prepping dinner to make sure I've got it on the table per his preferences at the set time, a quick word of praise doesn't hurt him, and does wonders to reenforce this behavior that he desires.

I realize that there are days that are hectic, or frantic, or that have just gone to the dogs, and as such, my proverbial pat on the head isn't the top most thing on his mind, but that isn't the norm, or at least, I don't think it should be.

To each their own, but I don't see why so many find this concept hard to understand.

(in reply to MstrHellsFury)

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Post #: 22

RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 4:34:32 PM

anopheles

Posts: 241
Joined: 6/23/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtydreams

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

I guess I'm gonna be the one to catch it for this but...I don't reward through a pat on the head...doing the things I expect done...if something is of exceptional quality then I'll respond...

I work..every day...as hard as I can...I do more than I should...and I teach others how to do their job as well.....I don't expect nor do I ever think about my supervisor telling me...good job...why?..because he expects this from me...

my reward and satisfaction come from me knowing that whoever passes through me...will be as good as he can be...and when it's time for a performance review...I see it expressed in advancement and or pay increases...

I don't work for admiration of others...I work for my own self-gratifaction...I'm happy doing what I do..and I enjoy doing it every day...do I sometimes get tired and wonder why I continue...of course...but I know I will ...until that day comes I find no enjoyment in doing it any more...

I structure my jobs to control the things around me...and I structure my home in the same way...I control the things there as well...

your reward and satifaction will come in me expressing how well you serve me in the things I do to show my pleasure in all you do...it may be a day..or several weeks before I acknowledge what you've done...but when I do...in that single moment would you not understand my feelings toward you and all you do...

I'll say this for the bilizillionth time...we all have a different way of living this life...some show it all the time..some less...and some not at all...but if you're with us...don't you know us as we are..and know how we express ourselves to you...

Fury

Ok, I like to read the posts here, I feel I've gained quite a bit of insight into how others see this working for them, and I've never posted, but this topic hits pretty close to home for me. "don't work for the admiration of others" "work for my own self-gratification" Really? So you don't get paid? You don't take home a paycheck for the work you do? You get nothing whatsover for your time and effort? I find that hard to believe, were that the case, you'd be doing charity, not work.

Why is it too much to expect something in return? That pat on the head, is the greatest thing ever, and the only reason I have for doing what ever menial task that needs done. I need his praise, I love to see the look in his eyes, and hear it in his voice, that he appreciates what I've done. I don't think that's too much to ask. If I've spent all day cleaning house, and then prepping dinner to make sure I've got it on the table per his preferences at the set time, a quick word of praise doesn't hurt him, and does wonders to reenforce this behavior that he desires.

I realize that there are days that are hectic, or frantic, or that have just gone to the dogs, and as such, my proverbial pat on the head isn't the top most thing on his mind, but that isn't the norm, or at least, I don't think it should be.

To each their own, but I don't see why so many find this concept hard to understand.

A poll amongst Masters would probably be a good way to resolve this issue, but I think it depends very much on the relationship dynamic. Some more masochistic subs may find that frequent praise actually reduces their experience. They would prefer to merely do as they are told and find their own reward internally. The actual act of following orders may be all that that they desire, so praise, or even a pat on a head is lost on them.

On the contrary, some submissives work for their "pat on the head", so to speak. If they don't get it, then the focus and determination they had to please their Master is lost. A highly masochistic slave and a Master that likes to dote on their slave for properly performing their tasks might not make the best mix, as would the opposite. I think it's a very important issue to resolve during the "feeling-out" stage that any Dominant and submissive should work out very early on in the relationship.

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 5:04:14 PM

icurtoo

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/12/2005
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Okay I know I don't know anything about this lifestyle but I do know human nature. Just a smile of acknowledgement, a quick gesture or a simple thank you is the most powerful motivator. You're not asking for roses and cards. Yes you are a s but you are a human being with the right to respect and kindness. From what I have read and mind you that is the litlle I know, the D is supposed to help you grow, to care for you. He is not just there to point out your mistakes. A little praise can make a miraculous difference in your feelings, your perceptions, and you will better serve your D. You will both benefit.

Take all that with a huge grain of salt as I only speak from theory and personal knowledge gleaned through vanilla relationships.

(in reply to wetsub000)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 5:55:28 PM

RandBcouple

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Joined: 5/19/2005
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Positive reinforcement is as important as discipline and punishment, imho. i'd wait until your free time, or an appropriate time to bring this up and let your Master know how you feel about this issue, if he still doesn't give you positive feedback then just accept that he isn't communicative in that sense and know that he is pleased with you even if he doesn't verbalize it.

~Babygirl

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 6:01:15 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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From Lilly in reference to Fastlane...

quote:

You sound like someone who's never ventured away from your computer

Ouchie! He's real, and he is not abusive. And I'm glad he "ventured away" from his computer.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 6:17:52 PM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

quote:

Positive reinforcement? This is not Psychology or behavior modification, and you are not Pavlov's Dog. Continue to do what you are doing...to please.
If he's happy you will know it, if he's not...negative reinforcement will follow.....Now, quit drooling and continue to please....The Bone will follow!

This sounds like yet another "Instant Dom" you find on the internet. The "My way or the highway, bitch" guys who don't have a clue about what real dominance is all about, what owning someone who's submitted to you is really about. Why is it so often men confuse arrogance and abusive tendancies with Dominance?

Actually, Fastlane, this is Psychology or behavior modification. Apparently you do not subscribe to the Power Exchange model of BDSM. If you did, you would realize that without some kind of feedback, without any incentive to continue to do a good job, this girl will finally come to her senses and realize that she's not getting what she needs out of this relationship. If she were a dog and had just done a trick at the master's command, she'd probably get a treat or a pet on the head. Why is it we don't gasp and become indignant when we hear of people treating their dogs with positive reinforcement but when it comes to a submissive or slave, some yutz out there decides that abuse is the way to go.

You sound like someone who's never ventured away from your computer, and I thank the powers that be for that.

Lily

quote:

This sounds like yet another "Instant Dom" you find on the internet. The "My way or the highway, bitch" guys who don't have a clue about what real dominance is all about, what owning someone who's submitted to you is really about. Why is it so often men confuse arrogance and abusive tendancies with Dominance?

Actually, Fastlane, this is Psychology or behavior modification. Apparently you do not subscribe to the Power Exchange model of BDSM. If you did, you would realize that without some kind of feedback, without any incentive to continue to do a good job, this girl will finally come to her senses and realize that she's not getting what she needs out of this relationship. If she were a dog and had just done a trick at the master's command, she'd probably get a treat or a pet on the head. Why is it we don't gasp and become indignant when we hear of people treating their dogs with positive reinforcement but when it comes to a submissive or slave, some yutz out there decides that abuse is the way to go.

You sound like someone who's never ventured away from your computer, and I thank the powers that be for that.

Actually Lilly, I've ventured far enough away to have met many friends here, including my Pet Katie. Fastlane pulls out his wallet and checks his credentials..."hmm, certified Dom granted to Fastlane, by the Power's of the Domination board, for his service in behavior modification and humanity to his hound, not to mention his prowess in knots, paddles, single tails, canes, wax play and his attention to detail when pushing the limits."
Whew, had me worried for a minute thier Lily, guess you're drooling now, but then again, perhaps it's only on your computer's keyboard and not someones.......?
Fastlane, play nice!

Fastlane, recoils and says.....it's all good!

Guess you don't get me doll.....I like to make people smile....."smile on this!"

lashes and lust Lily, Kevin

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/20/2005 6:56:17 PM

girl4you2

Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtydreams

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrHellsFury

I guess I'm gonna be the one to catch it for this but...I don't reward through a pat on the head...doing the things I expect done...if something is of exceptional quality then I'll respond...

I work..every day...as hard as I can...I do more than I should...and I teach others how to do their job as well.....I don't expect nor do I ever think about my supervisor telling me...good job...why?..because he expects this from me...

my reward and satisfaction come from me knowing that whoever passes through me...will be as good as he can be...and when it's time for a performance review...I see it expressed in advancement and or pay increases...

I don't work for admiration of others...I work for my own self-gratifaction...I'm happy doing what I do..and I enjoy doing it every day...do I sometimes get tired and wonder why I continue...of course...but I know I will ...until that day comes I find no enjoyment in doing it any more...

I structure my jobs to control the things around me...and I structure my home in the same way...I control the things there as well...

your reward and satifaction will come in me expressing how well you serve me in the things I do to show my pleasure in all you do...it may be a day..or several weeks before I acknowledge what you've done...but when I do...in that single moment would you not understand my feelings toward you and all you do...

Fury

Ok, I like to read the posts here, I feel I've gained quite a bit of insight into how others see this working for them, and I've never posted, but this topic hits pretty close to home for me. "don't work for the admiration of others" "work for my own self-gratification" Really? So you don't get paid? You don't take home a paycheck for the work you do? You get nothing whatsover for your time and effort? I find that hard to believe, were that the case, you'd be doing charity, not work.

when it comes to justifying rewards (the other side of the punishment coin), the paycheck analogy comes up often. but to many, the reason for doing something is not to have the paycheck (or the gold stickers in school or pat on the head), it's instead internal motivation, aka intrinsic motivation. it's what kept jonas salk going after all of his experiments that did not end up with a viable vaccine for polio. he did not keep doing his research only to get a government grant; he kept going because of something inside himself that kept him motivated. many other examples can be made, but the point is that the really important contributors to society have not been extrinsically motivated. they sought more lofty goals, and worked hard to achieve them, and the world has been bettered by what they have accomplished.

the same may be said of children (i'm a mom and don't agree with the easy path of stickers and other rewards used in schools) and adults of all kinds, including submissives. i'm not a submissive because i need reinforcement from another. i just am. i am motivated by who i am and what that means to me. on the other side of the submissive coin, i don't avoid behaviors just so i won't get punished (or contemplate doing them secretly so as to not get caught); i don't do them because that isn't something i wish to do, it is not my nature--inside myself--to want to do them. if i know that i have pleased my dominant, then i feel good myself. i don't need his praise to feel good, just as i don't need to see an extension of his displeasure when i've not done as i should--i feel it in myself far more. this works for me, and i'm not telling anyone what will work for them; we are all unique. this is an area i've great passion about.

(in reply to naughtydreams)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/21/2005 10:59:45 AM

carefulsub

Posts: 32
Joined: 3/7/2005
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Well I guess I understand both sides of this but in my himble opinion and My Masters opinion. A littlepraise can go a long way. We may be submissives or slaves but all in all this is a gift you have given to your Master. If he does not appreciate it and nuture it, it can whiter and you can become unhappy. This life has many turns and many different facets that people do onot think of, but a simple nod and smile may be all you need to make you feel like all your work has not gone unuoticed.

Master is really good about letting me know in small ways that I have pleased him.

Also when you are at work, anyone would like to hear good job now and then. That is what keeps us going. I have had bosses that scream yell and curse at you and I have had bosses that give a little thanks for a job well done. I would rather have a small good job today than the other choices.

careful

(in reply to Hallittlelolita)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/21/2005 5:42:59 PM

VelvetIronTouch

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/21/2005
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simply explaining your emotional needs is not topping from the bottom. Topping from the bottom is 100% manipulation. Be honest and straightforward, your Master will appreciate that.

Simply tell him how you feel, what you are lacking, keep your eyes low, do not demand, and be honest. He will appreciate your candor, and decide for Himself what is to be done about the situation.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/23/2005 7:54:31 AM

Paul1974

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Joined: 2/8/2005
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I could not disagree more. This is pychology (psychological), this IS behaviour modification, Pavlovian response is what dogs and humans have in common, operant conditioning.

did you think it was magic?

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/23/2005 11:04:46 PM

FLButtSlut

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
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The reward you seek from your job is that yearly review and raise. Certainly if every year went by and you never got a raise, you would think perhaps you should go where your work was REWARDED more appropriately.

As for Hallittlelolita, I notice that you and your husband entered into this lifestyle recently, but it would appear from your profile that you have been married some time prior to deciding on an M/s relationship.

With that being said...was he demonstrative in that regard when you were "just" a vanilla married couple? If he was, then you should talk to him about that. If he wasn't, then nothing has really changed much in that regard has it? Some people are just not the type to say those types of things. My dear father only ever told me he loved me when he was on his deathbed. Did I wonder until that time if he cared about me? No, I knew that was who he was, although hearing him say that before he died meant a great deal to me.

My point is a person is not going to change who they are at the core of their personality just because they are now your master. On the other hand, if he wasn't like that before, he may be under the mistaken impression that this is the "proper" way to be a master. I'm sure you can see from all the posts here that a "proper" master is defined in many different ways.

While he says that it shouldn't be necessary (and would certainly be tedious to offer for every little thing), simply telling you that dinner was delicious at least shows that you are appreciated. Every one needs that in life. It is part of something called the hierarchy of needs.

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/24/2005 12:00:30 AM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wetsub000

I know I respond better to a bit of praise and I like to give the same feedback to my Dom. If I only communicated to raise concerns and never to thank him for all the things he does, how would he feel?

Great comment! I'm a huge believer, and vocal advocate of submissives showing their appreciation to dominants. I believe in verbalizing how wonderful it feels to have someone see the value in taking such an active interest in my life and well-being. Domination looks like hard work to me, after all.

The simple fact is that all human beings need feedback, and attention, to function well in a social environment. Human beings are not robots. All of us need to feel appreciated, not taken for granted. That includes the Tops and the Bottoms.

This isn't a BDSM issue, it's a human relationship issue.

By the way, I've heard it said, and it bears repeating: it's not undomly to say "thanks".

Cin

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Cin

quote:

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/24/2005 5:06:11 PM

Hallittlelolita

Posts: 253
Joined: 8/11/2005
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Thanky uo so much for all the replies

it is very much appreciated. i have talked with Master on this and He is showing more thanks ect.

Thank you for all the input

Sincerely andie and her Master Hal

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RE: How do i ask? - 9/27/2005 8:34:19 AM

worshipmoons

Posts: 39
Joined: 8/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

While negative reinforsments might have their uses, pisitive one is often mutch more effective, on animals, on children and yes even on submissives.

LOMA...I use this in my dog and cat.....

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