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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I'm going to start off with quoting PL and this insightful little gem.

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Part of the confusion, I think comes from the fact that for many of us, (not all) are more committed to this type of relationship because it fulfills us, and satisfies us like no vanilla relationship would. Because we value it more, we work harder at it. Then we say “Wow, these D/s relationships are…” Harder, deeper, etc. The reality is that we choose to work harder, communicate better, develop more trust.

Reading this caused one of those lightbulb moments for me and I recognized that whatever I may have been before, what I am now has the most meaning for me so I do work harder at it and value it more. 

Being a submissive satisfy's me like no other state of being, so I work harder to embrace that aspect of myself. Submissives rock!

Take out submissive, insert slave and it still works.

Take out slave and insert vanilla, top, switch etc., and by George, they all work, too!

I think that when viewed in the way PL explained things, the definitions of the words (slave, submissive, top, master, switch etc.) have less meaning as it's the journey, itself, which is the story and "I am a slave, submissive, top, master", is just the last line of a given chapter.

A thread titled X journey's, might be one which would prove worthwhile. Something along the lines of .. "Tell me of your journey. How did you get to where you are from where you started?"

Not so much "what got you started" but rather "what kept and what continues to keep you moving? What do you wonder about and what do you aspire towards? If you're where you want to be, what's next for you?"

What good would that do for the general readership? ::shrugs:: Maybe nothing or, maybe everything. A chance for a little communion, a little fellowship. A chance for someone who sees themselves in the words/writing of someone else and says .. hey, yeah, me too! Maybe they'll share their own story, which, no matter how similar is still going to have unique variations which, in turn, may speak to someone else.

Oh hell. I think I just had a kumbaya moment, but, strangely, I don't feel bad about it.

Celeste

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ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

Noah--I would like to clarify one thing for the sake of my own understanding.

It sounds to me like you are asking these questions:
1. Have you ever found that applying labels or having labels apply to you has been beneficial, and how?
2. Have you had negative experience from having labels applied or applying them, and how?

I'd like to get clear before I try to answer.

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ORIGINAL: ThinkingKitten

You 'll never change the way people on t' "other-side" market/label themselves, or the way they whine about it here. Look at who has actually contributed to this thread. For the most part, only seasoned CM posters. Sure there are a lot of lurkers out there, but there are also a lot of hit and run transient's who come in from the "other-side", don't read much of anything before starting a thread about sub vs. slave, Dom vs.Master, or whatever and vanish never to be seen or heard of again. They'll never see this. The arguments/complaining will continue, for anything else would suggest that some kind of intellectual revolution had seeped through the planet......

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ORIGINAL: Justme696

At OP

lol we can say you didn't succeed in stopping the discussion ;)

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Aslong people have brains we will discuss about things

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ORIGINAL: Rule

I know the differences, according to my hypotheses, between the natural slave and the (two types, I suspect, of) natural submissives. I am inclined not to share. Telling might prevent harm, but also cause harm.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Two better words to end the debate....

more beer.

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ORIGINAL: Noah

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Two better words to end the debate....

more beer.

I'm buying.

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ORIGINAL: Justme696

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ORIGINAL: Noah

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Two better words to end the debate....

more beer.

I'm buying.

time and place please ;)

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ORIGINAL: Noah

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Two better words to end the debate....

more beer.

I'm buying.

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Instead of discussing Criterion X as the defining mark for this label vs. that label, why not just explain that in your view the thing you were going to label Criterion X is a psychological feature (emotional tendency, behavioral habit, or what-have you) of submissives, say, which is worth looking closely at. Say in what way you think this is so and what benefit you imagine (or have experienced) from looking at things in this way.............................


Why not take up the same subject but on a basis which does not mire it in the eternal controversies over definitions and labels?

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ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl
YES i said schema that good word taken from the cognitive sciences which means an internal wiring, unseen, an innate and developmental somewhere within the 'black box' of the organism......known to exist because of its external correlates BUT also known to be differential to such an extent that any convergent definition limits what the schema's capacity really is....

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ORIGINAL: ThinkingKitten

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ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl
YES i said schema that good word taken from the cognitive sciences which means an internal wiring, unseen, an innate and developmental somewhere within the 'black box' of the organism......known to exist because of its external correlates BUT also known to be differential to such an extent that any convergent definition limits what the schema's capacity really is....

Pardon me. What?
(just kidding) 

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ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

Dear Noah:
hurray !!! At last! A handle on the emotional, psychological and INTERNAL mechanisms or schema for submission and slavery.....YES i said schema that good word taken from the cognitive sciences which means an internal wiring, unseen, an innate and developmental somewhere within the 'black box' of the organism......known to exist because of its external correlates

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Interesting topic Noah. 

i think the words you quoted from FemmeSensei have meaning in the context of people wanting to mold themselves into an external ideal of something they don't have a solid handle on internally.  By that i mean, if i intrinsically have submissive/slave inclinations, i am going to be far less worried about what definition i fit into and more focused on simply living and being and developing who i am. 

You said "I believe that the thing at issue in FemmeSensei's criterion does, for instance, warrant careful thought."  That is at the crux of what i am getting at.  If you have to give something so much thought, it takes away from the experience of being what and who you want to be.  If i think about X criteria of what it is to be a slave, and project all kinds of anticipations onto myself, what good can that do me in the end?  The debate over sub vs slave are for people not engaged in the living and relating of who and what they are.  To be human is to be fluid.  Each day brings new trials and tribulations, new experiences, new emotions, new ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc....  where is the spontaneity and growth if every time there is an experience, event, emotion you have to match it to a particular criteria?  It's stifiling.   

Being whatever it is i am isn't so much me living up to some expectation i have of myself because of some criterian, it is more a response to a particular person or circumstance that draws out the who and what i am.  If i am so fixed on labels and criterion i would cheat not only myself but my partner of the authenticity of who i am. Maybe what gets drawn out of me isn't always what others expect or want, but one thing for sure... it is genuine.

Hope i made sense. 

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Interesting topic Noah. 

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i think the words you quoted from FemmeSensei have meaning in the context of people wanting to mold themselves into an external ideal of something they don't have a solid handle on internally

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.  By that i mean, if i intrinsically have submissive/slave inclinations, i am going to be far less worried about what definition i fit into and more focused on simply living and being and developing who i am.

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You said "I believe that the thing at issue in FemmeSensei's criterion does, for instance, warrant careful thought."  That is at the crux of what i am getting at.  If you have to give something so much thought, it takes away from the experience of being what and who you want to be. 

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If i think about X criteria of what it is to be a slave, and project all kinds of anticipations onto myself, what good can that do me in the end? 

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The debate over sub vs slave are for people not engaged in the living and relating of who and what they are.

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To be human is to be fluid.  Each day brings new trials and tribulations, new experiences, new emotions, new ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc....  where is the spontaneity and growth...

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 if every time there is an experience, event, emotion you have to match it to a particular criteria?  It's stifiling.

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Being whatever it is i am isn't so much me living up to some expectation i have of myself because of some criterian, it is more a response to a particular person or circumstance that draws out the who and what i am.

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  If i am so fixed on labels and criterion i would cheat not only myself but my partner of the authenticity of who i am. Maybe what gets drawn out of me isn't always what others expect or want, but one thing for sure... it is genuine.

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Hope i made sense. 

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ORIGINAL: Noah

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Interesting topic Noah. 

Thanks.

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i think the words you quoted from FemmeSensei have meaning in the context of people wanting to mold themselves into an external ideal of something they don't have a solid handle on internally

Probably, but, my sense is that a lot of people are expressing no interest in molding themselves to an external idea. Rather they are trying to get a handle on this new and unexpected place they find themselves in. And I think that's fine.

i do as well.  Although i think if the person is doing something natural to them,  they have less difficulty getting a handle on it.  The more natural something comes to you the easier it is. 

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.  By that i mean, if i intrinsically have submissive/slave inclinations, i am going to be far less worried about what definition i fit into and more focused on simply living and being and developing who i am.

This seems to suggest that someone who happens to be more worried about definitions is less intrinsically submissive than you. I can't imagine how you'd support that claim. Is the gene for preferring to have well laid out definitions absent when the gene for submissiveness is present?

No. I think that some wonderful, authentic and very well realized submissives probably spend time now and then wondering about definitions. And I don't think this marks them as intrinsically less submissive than you. I'm using a too-broad brush here b ut I hope you see that the question could be asked more narrowly.

i don't support that claim at all, i am saying in a nut shell learn definitions if you like but then simply be who you are, don't try to live the definition of a sub or slave, be the sub or slave you need to be for your own and your owners benefit and satisfaction.  i do  understand what you are saying but the way i was thinking about it is that when someone is so caught up in the definitions of what a sub is as opposed to what a slave is, and they allow those definitions to define them rather then guide them, that is where X criterion can hinder rather than help. i have known many submissives/slaves who beat themselves over the head because they couldn't/wouldn't do "what a slave is suppossed to do". Or how many submissives get told by dominants that they are looking for a slave (whatever that means to them) and they walk away feeling they lack something a "slave" has?  Definitions are fine as guides but when they become the defining aspect of how that person goes about expressing what is inside her, that's where i think they loose their usefullness.

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You said "I believe that the thing at issue in FemmeSensei's criterion does, for instance, warrant careful thought."  That is at the crux of what i am getting at.  If you have to give something so much thought, it takes away from the experience of being what and who you want to be. 

Who said anythign about "have to". It is one of the saddest trends around here, to mind mind, the way that people color their treatment of other people's preferences by calling them needs. The person who doesn't like fire play says "Anyone who feels the need to light his partner on fire is (bad awful terrible lame criminal abusive whatever.)

What if soemone just "likes to"?

Maybe you never sat down to try to organize your thoughts and feelings about your kink. That's fine if so. But those who do give some abstract consideration to the way they live their life (as you indeed seem to have done in composing your post) are not necessarily taking anything "'away from the experience of being what and who (they) want to be."

Maybe they want to be someone who carefully considers these things. Who are we to invalidate that?

Giving careful consideration to the way one wants to live their life is essential in my opinion and i hope what i tried to say didn't lead you to think i was saying the opposite.  In a sense that is the essential aspect of what it is i am saying that is so important.  Contemplate, consider, experiment, compare, research, experience etc, just do all that without the constraints of slapping a label on yourself and having things off limits or feeling forced to comply with (xyz) because of some general definition you come across of what it is, what you "need" to do to be a "real""good"" (dare i say) "true" slave/sub.  How many posts do we get where a newbie comes in bewildered when she's told - "if you were a real slave you would do (xyz)"  or "You're not a real slave because you (have limits, wants, needs, desires) of your own"  All the sterotipic things we read about around the threads.  This cannot be  helpful to anyone to be told they are no good at something they feel deeply in their hearts and minds they connect with simply based on someone elses definition of something.  

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If i think about X criteria of what it is to be a slave, and project all kinds of anticipations onto myself, what good can that do me in the end? 

What if you have long been a lazy, selfish, manipulative slave who now wishes to alter her pernicious habits by  living a more intentional life, cognizant of ideals like openness, generosity, and willingness to serve? Could that never do you good in the end?

As long as after you have searched your conscience /mind/thought processes/soul you feel that YOU have been a lazy, selfish, manipulative slave than absolutely you should (hopefully) wish to alter that behavior. It's when sub/slaves get those ideas (that they are selfish, lazy, manipulative), after being the best they feel they can be and mak the best efforts and feel those things because they haven't lived up to some "criterion" that i have a problem with.

I think there is an important kernel of truth in what you said there but it seems to paint over a lot.

Do you utterly disregard your partner's preferences in expressing your submission? If not then isn't it fair to say that you are proceeding with reference to his or her criteria--even if the word may not be the most comfortable one?

Your partner's preference is the only valid part of what should motivate and guide you. If you choose someone both should have criteria that match or else there won't be much compatibility. 

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The debate over sub vs slave are for people not engaged in the living and relating of who and what they are.

You have set  whether or not people engage in the sub v. slave discussion as a criterion for who can be included on the list of people engaged in the living and relating of who and what they are.

Just the opposite!  i am saying to hell with that debate and live wiitwd as you wish after contemplating your own unique place within it.

Please scroll through umpteen threads on that subject and tell me whether you want to proffer that kind of harsh evaluation of everyone in those threads.

Hope i cleared that up... if not please ask any question you would like.

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To be human is to be fluid.  Each day brings new trials and tribulations, new experiences, new emotions, new ideas, thoughts, feelings, etc....  where is the spontaneity and growth...

True enough. But to be human is to maintain various continuities too. You don't want to recommend spontaneously tossing out your world view just for the sake of it. Balance is required, no? Can everyone always quite viscerally feel the balance point for all of their psychological and emotional concerns? Or do we sometimes benefit from sitting down to reflect critically on our habits and practices?

Balance in anything is crucial.  i think most people probably sit and reflect critically about the choices they make in life, in how they are living their life, etc..... the beauty of wiitwd is in the freedom it affords us to be who and what we are with someone who understands and accepts us for exactly that.  Labels and specific criteria limit that because then it becomes two people living up to the expectation of the label rather than what is internally driving them.

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 if every time there is an experience, event, emotion you have to match it to a particular criteria?  It's stifiling.

That would be stifling, but come now. Who has ever come close to recommending that every experience, event and emotion should be individually held up to some criteria?

No one i would ever listen to!!  How many people come and bemoan "i did (whatever) and my Master told me  he was disappointed because real slaves wold never do that" or "Master brought in a second slave and i was jelous and he said that was not slave like to be jelous" - so many examples from just reading the threads each day.

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Being whatever it is i am isn't so much me living up to some expectation i have of myself because of some criterian, it is more a response to a particular person or circumstance that draws out the who and what i am.

This sounds almost like a sunflower which proceeds only by reacting to the position of the sun or when buffetted by the wind. But I'm sure you actively engage with life, make decisions and act on them with initiative..

Absolutely.  Taking initiative to me is essential.

As for me I have no problem with a person who elects to live his or her life according to certain standards, say standards of integrity, honesty, and active engagement with life. Hey. Did I just describe you? Seriously, one needn't abandon spontaneity in order to live according to either societal or personal standards, or criteria, if you like.

i agree with having standards and living by them. That's not the same as living wiitwd with a rigid view based on definitions of  wiitwsd "what it is that we should do"

Let's keep inmind that "criterion" does not mean "absolute and inflexible criterion".

It never will for me, although i can say i had grief in my life at one point because i bought into a definition of what it was i tried to be instead of just accepting who i was.

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  If i am so fixed on labels and criterion i would cheat not only myself but my partner of the authenticity of who i am. Maybe what gets drawn out of me isn't always what others expect or want, but one thing for sure... it is genuine.

One can be too fixed on these things, sure. But I'm not ready to agree that anyone who takes part in sub vs. slave discussions has necessarily gone off this deep end.

Never meant to imply that anyone does, but some do.  Some become so fixated on labels and shoulds and musts etc they forget who they are and try to become someone elses version of what they need to strive for. 

Again here you sound like such a passive participant in your own life. It proceeds in terms of what gets drawn out of you. What about that which is not drawn out but which issues forth as a matter of your own initiative, creativity and free will?

i value my free will, creativity and take plenty of initiative - maybe too much for some peoples comfort lol.  All i meant by that was that when relating to a particular dominant, each is an individual themselves, therefore each will draw something different from me - of course influenced by many things that are inputs from me.  This is as it should be and what makes each relationship unique. 

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Hope i made sense. 

You certainly did.  Just as certainly I will have misread you here and , inferred improperly there in the course of my comments. Please accept my comments as provisional and in a good spirit. And please correct me where ever you care to.

i hope this time around i was more clear

Thanks for posting.