New Confusion... (Full Version)

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StormsSlave -> New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:26:43 AM)

I don't seek to get into yet another labelling conversation, only to deeper understand our situation and maybe to help others understand theirs.  Maybe this should be posted to the Sub forum, but I think I'd like to present it to a larger audience.

In a parallel thread there are a couple of discussions focused on subs struggling with their submission.  I asked My Lord if I struggled with mine, and was rather surprised that his answer was yes.  When I questioned how, his response was,
"You don't submit because it's what I want, but because you want to please me."

When I told him I don't understand, his reply, after much thought, was that in his mind, submission is doing what you're told because you were told, not because in your own mind it pleases the master.  I responded that to me this sounds like the "biblical" definition of submission.

I am of the opinion that in the sexual venue most subs commit acts of submission because they choose to please their master, and that is the pleasure and the power exchange. At least, that's what gets me off.

I'm curious as to how others view it.  My Lord is correct, that I do submit in a desire to please him specifically.  I was under the impression that this was the basis of "submission" and dominance.

So, in your opinion, how do you view submission?  If you submit, why do you submit?   What are your thoughts?



mnottertail -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:38:16 AM)

That is why I say:

The notion of women's submission is wholly fantasy; they are just dominating from the long way 'round.

You are there because you want to be there, some benefit is perceived as accruing to you.

Ron  



CuriousLord -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:38:25 AM)

So you submit out of a desire to serve him instead of just out of a simple desire to be submissive?  Your form of submission strikes me as the more meaningful kind.  It's the kind I'd want from a lover.



LadyHathor -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:43:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

So you submit out of a desire to serve him instead of just out of a simple desire to be submissive?  Your form of submission strikes me as the more meaningful kind.  It's the kind I'd want from a lover.


I know I am not a submissive, however, I agree with CL om this one--that latter to Me would indicate someone who would submit no matter who the D was--I'd much rather feel that it was out of caring to please Me--that denotes more of a relationship to Me
 
and this is only My desires--not a judgement of others.



MsLadySue -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:49:01 AM)

I would certainly want the sub to submit to me because he wished to please me. If it was being done solely because I told him to and he had no desire to do so, I doubt the relationship would last long. Eventually he would get fed up doing things because they were expected of him.



Rule -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:53:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave
"You don't submit because it's what I want, but because you want to please me."

The desire to please, that was indeed the motivation that another sub gave when asked in these forums.
 
Your master appears to desire a slave, something you cannot deliver as the two are antithetical. His desire is not feasible.



WontSpareTheRod -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:53:07 AM)

Maybe i am missing somthing but I can't quite see where he is comming from? I beleive wanting to please your partner is the driving force behind wanting to submit them. Im quite happy for a sub not to enjoy the specific order i give but do it anyway because they wish to please me. And i asume you want to submit anyway, because you want to submit as it will please him.

The only way i can see where the issue might be is IF when he gives an order if it is not somthing you would like you make it cleare that you wont enjoy it but do it just to please him, more of an attitude you display.

Maybe it would be a good idea to ask him for a couple of examples so you can address it?



Lashra -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 7:54:11 AM)

When my male sub submits to me it is because he wants to obey, serve and please me. It is his nature coupled with inspiration from my Dominance that he does this, not something that he feels that he "has" to do.

~Lashra



lockmeupplease -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:02:27 AM)

To my thinking, the desire to please my SPECIFIC Mistress is the driving force for me.  In the example given by the OP, her master's definition of submission would mean that I should submit to any Dominant.  That would make me a drone without personality.



kallisto -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:10:20 AM)

IMO, I submit to Him because doing what He tells me or wants me to do, pleases Him, makes Him happy, shows Him that I'm listening and obeying.   Doing these things for Him does make me happy and it's my desire to serve Him and yes, it's what I want to do.      



SimplyMichael -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:13:07 AM)

Why does someone submit?

Because someone barked an order?  How do they choose which barker to obey?  Do they simply obey the nearest, loudest, most intelligent, or what?

I prefer to think they submit because they see me as worthy of their submission, that because of the man I am I evoke something that no other man does.

Funny, I never thought of it as a virginal thing as I prefer my women thorougly debached before they met me, but in a D/s way I guess I prefer them sort of virginal?  HMMMM, have to think about that one!



lronitulstahp -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:14:02 AM)

quote:

 You don't submit because it's what I want, but because you want to please me." 

i suppose i fit that description rather well.  Before i ever served anyone, i had the desire to serve.  To satiate that desire...i serve.  In order to serve, i give up control, i make myself pleasing and submit to a Dominant figure.  The chicken(submissive nature), came before the egg(Dominant).  In that sense, D/s may seem a bit symbiotic.  But i'd rather think of it as like-minded individuals finding the counterpart that suits their desire. 
i have heard tales of subs who never felt submissive until they met their Dom/Master...but that is fairly uncommon.  For some it may seem that submission then, is a way of getting what i feel i need...but the desire to serve or submit, should be stronger than the desire to feel pleasure through submission.  When everything is done right.



Mercnbeth -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:23:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
That is why I say:
The notion of women's submission is wholly fantasy; they are just dominating from the long way 'round.
You are there because you want to be there, some benefit is perceived as accruing to you.
Ron  


Ron -
THANKS for the Sunday morning laugh! I can pass over the comics today.

Not that you don't represent a large share of those participating in the 'lifestyle' its the representation about submission being a 'fantasy' - gendar notwithstanding. You see, I think you are correct. Most don't submit, most 'let' someone do something to them. How this became a definition of submission is beyond me, but check out most submissive profiles and they are filled with things they will let/won't let, with details about the how much and how hard any 'let' can be inflicted on them.

Then there are the actual submissive profiles. Those who will 'do', if allowed; promising to never exceed any limit, committed to serving the dominant's safe-words.

I agree with you - Funny stuff!

My only discrepancy with your assessment is when you made it an absolute. When you made it "wholly fantasy" you took away the possibility of exceptions. They do exist, again gendar notwithstanding. They are rare, but they do exist. 



CuriousLord -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:26:59 AM)

Perhaps you should encourage your master to think through what he said.  It was pretty silly, so I'm not sure if he's given it adequate thought just yet.



salilus -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:27:59 AM)

I see what he's saying, I think. He wants you to do what he wants because he wants it or tells you to do it. That means he may not always be 'pleased' with it.

Example: you are ill but you have decided that it's pleasing to him for you to cook his supper. So you begin to do that. He loves your cooking and would love a meal cooked by you, but you are sick. He tells you to go lie down.You argue and do not lie down. You continue to try and cook for him.

That is not submission - that is taking control of the situation and doing what you want, because you want to please him and not because you want to obey him.

That's an example. Lord knows if that actually happens in your life - I used it because it's something I used to be guilty of doing, an awful lot. I wanted to please so much that it caused me to not obey. It caused a lot of negetivity as I was doing all sorts of things because I thought I was supposed to and that it was pleasing... I didn't understand that I wasn't doing what he wanted.



StormsSlave -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:28:53 AM)

Just to clarify: My Lord has stated that he prefers us the we are.  It was more of an academic discussion.



Jeffff -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:31:53 AM)

I agree. The notion of submission as being altruistic doesn't work for me.I think many? most? alot? submitt because it pleases them. That works for me. I don't see a problem with it. If everyone is happy, does it really matter? To say a submissive has no power has always seemed disingenous ro me.

Jeff



CuriousLord -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:38:21 AM)

To go further with that example though, isn't contradicting the Master displeasing to him, even if actually having made the dinner in the absense of contradiction would've pleased him?  So a good slave wouldn't contradict the order, particularly if she's pleased by pleasing him.

To me, it feels like the heart of the matter is either the above (and being obscured by misunderstanding), or the very reason for the submission (as it seems most posters have taken it to be).

In the latter case.. is the slave submitting just for the sake of submitting, or for love and obidience to her particular Master?  In the OP, it sounds as though the master speaks of just submitting for the sake of submitting.

Still, to default to the primer case, it sounds like he just didn't consider it all the way (which, through the words, strikes me as the more likely case).  It's too easy to take the idea of "slave wants to please" and "slave obeys" as two seperate things, as I believe is the mistake in this entire line of thought.



salilus -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:44:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

To go further with that example though, isn't contradicting the Master displeasing to him, even if actually having made the dinner in the absense of contradiction would've pleased him?  So a good slave wouldn't contradict the order, particularly if she's pleased by pleasing him.


I'm completely confused as to what you're trying to say there.



Justme696 -> RE: New Confusion... (2/24/2008 8:44:09 AM)

My girls is curious about many things..because she feels submissive..ans is a sub in her heart.
Some things I order her to do..and are new to her....which make her nervous...she doesn't refuse...because she wants to please Me.
I guess it is just who she is..and I am happy with it. I asked often for an explanation...and most subs/slaves say the same.."it is just who i am"



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