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i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 12:38:54 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		in order not to hijack this thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_1653677/tm.htm i wanted to start this one to respond to a statement made here...
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I don't think that having limits is a sure sign that someone is not being submissive. I think what makes the difference is WHY you set those boundaries, not where they are set at. While I agree many are ONLY there to get their needs met, or will "put up with x, y, & z" to get their needs met.  However, I think having boundaries is healthy, even if you have knowingly set those boundaries at death. 


though this is not a new concept to me, it is especially pertinent to me today...i got in trouble with my Domly type today because i went along with what i thought he wanted...the problem phrase being "i thought"...see i thought he wanted me to do something and just make it easier for him to do and it included me going along with him to a convention...and all this part of me doing stuff happened to leave out that i didn't even want to go to the convention...because i didn't think he wanted to to know that i didn't want to go...

i'm not sure if this is really making sense...but what it boils down to is i got in trouble for not setting healthy boundaries in order to be submissive...but i was submitting in the way "i thought" i should, not the way he wanted me to...again there's the problem...i thought...

not really sure where to go with this from here....thoughts? anyone? anyone?

chelle


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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 2:05:12 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		I think that comes down to communication and the dynamics of your personal relationship....  Being together does mean you learn the other's ways, which can also lead to assumption, even in M/s relationships.
 
I have moods....  Using your scenario, I'm just as likely to ask the girl along assuming she might wanna come in her own right as I am to "ask" her along because I *want* her by my side regardless of how she feels of the event.
 
You shouldn't have got into trouble (lol) because, if you were mine, as soon as I asked, I would expect at least something along the lines of "do I reeeeeeeeally have to?" if you weren't thrilled about going.  You wouldn't get in trouble for that answer and I then simply decide what *I* want and you're a 50% chance of getting what you want....
 
Getting back to the general question, I also like a sub with a few boundaries.  How you work within or around them is entirely up to your personal dynamic with presumably *communication* being a key component.
 
Focus.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 2:12:17 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Subs/slaves do often things because they think their Master would like it. When in love this is a natural...and hard to suppress.
But as a sub/slave it might be wise just to wait for the order...if you are feeling "insecure" about what to do.
He will either demand it..or leave it.

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~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 2:15:23 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline
quote:

not really sure where to go with this from here....thoughts? anyone? anyone?


trust him.

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This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 4:12:17 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		trust him?  The trust me line has never worked for me.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 4:21:48 AM   
ruthiexxxx


Posts: 78
Joined: 1/29/2008
Status: offline

  of course a subbie is entitled to some bloody boundaries and 'hard limits'.   it is within the security of these that it is possible for her/him to experience genuine submission

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 5:32:05 AM   
AtlantaMistress


Posts: 276
Joined: 6/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruthiexxxx
of course a subbie is entitled to some bloody boundaries and 'hard limits'.   it is within the security of these that it is possible for her/him to experience genuine submission


ruthie: off topic but great to see the response, based on your own post about "limits"

chellekitty: as already stated communication and trust are crucial to ANY successful relationship - D/s, vanilla, friendship, love (& all combinations). Use this as a learning experience. Discuss how if you could go back, how you both could have communicated better. I recently had a similar experience with my boy. I was NOT CLEAR with what I wanted, and he took the liberty of making a choice before really understanding my needs. I wanted to see him, he took a benedryl because his allergies were acting up - then told me, and when I wasn't happy - told me I COULD order him to come anyway (which pissed me off even more - I KNOW what I can/can't do!) but he knew I wouldn't tell him to come in the rain doped up. We discussed it the next day, and in the future he knows to ASK me before doing something that would effect our plans changing. We were able to talk about it the next day, and I am confident that it will NEVER happen again...and the fact that it happened actually made our relationship stronger.




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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd rather be hated for something I am than loved for something I am not.


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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 6:36:35 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		Now you know it's not acceptable to withhold information about how you feel.  So don't.  When and how you deliever that information is up to your relationship and some good common sense.

My Dominant won't tolerate being in the dark about how I feel.  No matter how personal or how hard it is to explain or how much I might -want- to feel a certain way but don't, etc etc.   But choosing the right place, time, and way to express myself can be pretty difficult.

Good luck.



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"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 6:49:55 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		You're withholding necessary information. That means you're taking control of him instead of giving it to him.

He needs to know this so he can factor it into his plans. If you're lagging behind, checking your watch, and still saying "Oh yes, I'm having a great time" then you would be lying to him. If you wait until you're there to answer "are you having fun?" with "not at all, and I never wanted to come" then he'll be angry. Because either he knows you won't be in a good mood after twelve hours for what he wanted to do next, or he'll have to cut it short. If you had told him the truth he could have laughed and said you were missing a great time, and make sure to reorganize the kitchen cabinets before he gets back, or some such. Or he could have said "tough" and told you to put on comfy shoes because you would need them.

Either way, what you did was a lie of omission.

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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 7:51:52 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I don't like withholding of information, even with a submissive I am just beginning to know.  I understand that, in the beginning, there are things that are not shared because the trust has not been built yet (of course, one could argue that one of the ways you build trust is by giving someone information and seeing what they do with it but that is for another thread) and I also understand that, in the beginning, you are unsure of how someone else will react or what they are thinking but again, the argument can be made that you won't really know for sure until you bring information to them.  How much sense does it make for a submissive to be thinking that the dominant is doing/thinking/planning one thing and then the submissive goes down a certain path based on what she THINKS rather than what she knows?  How many beginning D/s relationships have been derailed because of thinking like that?  How many did not finish getting off the ground because the submissive made assumptions about what the dominant's thoughts would be or because the dominant did not probe far enough?  Would it just not be better to say to the dominant "I don't like going to those things" and find out that he is O.K. with that and may let you stay home as to go along just to please him and then, be in trouble for not telling him how you really felt?

Speaks again to the idea that none of us...dominant or submissive...are mindreaders. 

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 7:57:46 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think it's so much a matter of you needing boundaries but of the reality that as human beings we have boundaries, we have limitation, we have reactions, and we have thoughts. Some are controllable, some are retrainable and some I don't believe are changeable.

Part of being submissive is letting your partner know where all these things lay with you because then the dominant can make plans and have expectations that are realistic and therefore more likely to be successful.

No one likes to fail.

As a dom and an owner I hate it even more when it happens with Fox. Part of my job is to make decisions and given instructions and I can't do a very good job of that if I don't know his boundaries, his limitations, his potential reactions, etc. If he fails a task or gets negative energy from something then part of the is my fault for either not explaining things well enough, not understanding what is possible or for being unrealistic. However his communication of me is his responsibility.

The fact is that he may not know any more than I how each of us will react to any situation until it happens but we can guess based on previous experiences.

So chellekitty, that you didn't want to go to the convention, no matter who well you tried to hide it, probably came out in your attitude, your actions, your reactions, and simply your energy -- your dom picked up on that and to be blunt it hurt his enjoyment of the event.

Some of us learn to balance everything. For example, as part of my career as a writer and educator I need to go to at least one or two conventions a year and I require an escort simply because I refuse to deal with being a solo female dominant at these events. That is more stress to me that the fact that Fox isn't too keen on going. There are things I can do to help him because I know this but if I didn't know this about him, I could do nothing and he'd just be a drain on my energy.

So regardless of what you thought your dom wanted, chellekitty, what he needed was that information. He may have told you "That sucks but I need you there; let's find some way for you to focus on me and not on the event" or "I want you there at night but during the day why don't you go see the sights around the city" in other words giving him information gave him a chance to exercise his dominance.

Not giving information frankly, I apologize if this hurts feelings, stripped him of his authority. Yeah, that would piss me off too.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 8:21:02 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:


So chellekitty, that you didn't want to go to the convention, no matter who well you tried to hide it, probably came out in your attitude, your actions, your reactions, and simply your energy -- your dom picked up on that and to be blunt it hurt his enjoyment of the event.
<snip>
Not giving information frankly, I apologize if this hurts feelings, stripped him of his authority. Yeah, that would piss me off too.


this event is still coming up next month...but, what you said did not hurt my feelings, because, yes...thats what i did...and i am working real hard at not beating myself over it, but rather, learning from it, and not doing it again...


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 8:25:04 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		One of the most annoying things of all is "Anything you want Sir"

Tops need to know the boundaries we have to work within, or it's like walking an unmapped minefield in the dark.

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 8:27:21 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

i'm not sure if this is really making sense...but what it boils down to is i got in trouble for not setting healthy boundaries in order to be submissive...but i was submitting in the way "i thought" i should, not the way he wanted me to...again there's the problem...i thought...

not really sure where to go with this from here....thoughts? anyone? anyone?

chelle



Chelle, Dominants are not mind readers and while they are very good at body language or many I have met are, still don't know everything that is going on. The healthiest boundary I know of is the one where you permit yourself to speak respectfully to him about your feelings, physical or emotional or mental. That includes things you are not interested in. He can then decide whether you will do something or not, but at least has a clue as to where you are at.

One of the most frustrating things to men, vanilla or rocky road with extra nuts, is the woman who is obviously mad, or unhappy about something but won't say what it is, usually giving the answer to questions like.. "what's wrong?" "Nothing" "Yes there is, tell me" "You should know". They have no clue whats going on, can't read our minds and don't think they have done anything wrong. Dominants are also men. They can't read our minds. But they can tell when we are not happy about something even if we try to hide it.

poenkitten

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 9:02:06 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

One of the most annoying things of all is "Anything you want Sir"

Tops need to know the boundaries we have to work within, or it's like walking an unmapped minefield in the dark.


true.....  killing communication


_____________________________

~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 9:40:05 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:


So chellekitty, that you didn't want to go to the convention, no matter who well you tried to hide it, probably came out in your attitude, your actions, your reactions, and simply your energy -- your dom picked up on that and to be blunt it hurt his enjoyment of the event.
<snip>
Not giving information frankly, I apologize if this hurts feelings, stripped him of his authority. Yeah, that would piss me off too.


this event is still coming up next month...but, what you said did not hurt my feelings, because, yes...thats what i did...and i am working real hard at not beating myself over it, but rather, learning from it, and not doing it again...



If it hasn't happened yet then you and he have time to consider what to do.

Has your admission all ready been paid for? How important is that to you and he?

Do you want to go to supportive of him or to provide him service at an event you don't frankly want to be at? You can want to serve him and still be faced with a situation you don't like. If you want to go, then both of you can brainstorm and come up with things you could do that would make it an ok event for you. We don't get to enjoy everything in life, I doubt anyone does 100% of the time, but we can turn negatives into neutrals at times.

If you don't want to go, may you can use that time to think through some other situations you don't like. Why don't you like them? Is it previous experience, people, feeling icky in a crowd, etc? This would be a useful exercise if your dom really likes events. It will help you both figure out how to help you cope better with events.

So yeah think of this as an opportunity for you to learn more about yourself and share what you learn and the process of learning it with your dom unless he says "no, I don't want to know".

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to chellekitty)
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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 10:56:21 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

One of the most annoying things of all is "Anything you want Sir"

Tops need to know the boundaries we have to work within, or it's like walking an unmapped minefield in the dark.


Bravo, bravo, bravo.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 11:00:03 AM   
Nineveh


Posts: 1299
Joined: 2/5/2008
Status: offline 		I had this explained to me by a friend who is an experienced Dom in a way that made a lot of sense to me.  Ok, your Dom owns you, that doesn't jsut mean that he has a right to expect your obedience, it also means that he howns your reservations, your worries, your dislikes as well as your desires.  If you hold those dislikes, those fears, those discomfgorts back from him then you are holding something back which is his, and denying him something he has a right to.  Now he may require that you go along to that convention anyway, even if it is something you do not want to do.  But he has a right to know that it is something you do not want to do.  It is not about setting boundaries, althoguh that can also be important.  It is about communication, and submitting properly, realizing that if it is not a hard limit, and he truly wants you to do it he will value your acceptance of it despite your discomfort more than he would a fake cheerful acceptance.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 11:04:06 AM   
Nineveh


Posts: 1299
Joined: 2/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

One of the most annoying things of all is "Anything you want Sir"

Tops need to know the boundaries we have to work within, or it's like walking an unmapped minefield in the dark.


Perhaps it is the contrarian in me, but the first thing I do when someone tells me they have no limits is try to find one.  I'll be nice about it and keep asking if she is ok,  but I'm going limit hunting if she won't give them to me.

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RE: i need boundaries? but i thought.... - 2/26/2008 11:30:16 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am always required to tell him what I think and feel.  This way I am supplying him with all the information he needs in order to make an informed decision.  He might still have me do something I don't particularly want to do, then again, he may change his plans as a result.  The key is that I still have not created any boundaries between us; I am equipping him with what he wants from me, and in doing so, I am submitting the way he wants me to submit, not the way I am guessing he wants me to submit. 

A credo that was often repeated to me:  "When in doubt, ask your Master."

That seemed to end any issues with guessing.  Maybe you can use this as a way of setting boundaries against hiding your feelings from your Dom.

(in reply to chellekitty)
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