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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 2/29/2008 11:13:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

1. Have you ever wanted to stop using but couldn't

2. Have you ever tried to control the amount of substance you use and repeatedly fail. i.e. I'll only use ____ amount tonight next day etc and end up using more or all of it.


Yes to both questions.... eventually I managed to quit

My most recent kicked addiction... stopped smoking... I tried repeatedly for years to quit that. I did not join a 12 step program to quit that either


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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/1/2008 11:37:38 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Congrats on the smoking thing, julia. That's a tough one. I finally quit when my health got so bad it wasn't much of a choice anymore. Often the decision to quit an unhealthy habit simply comes when people get sick and tired of it.

That's a common experience and sort of feds into arpigs question, whether the 5% cured in AA are a different 5% than those who have a spontaneous remission. I'd ask, are the success stories from AA really due to the "program" or are they people who were determined to quit anyway and just happened to be in AA at the time (like what other choice do most people have)?


Z.

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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/1/2008 8:27:48 PM   
chellekitty


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Joined: 3/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
the spontaneous "cure" rate without any intervention is 5% per annum. The "cure" rate in AA is 5% per annum. Wow, what a success.


indeed, what a combined success, combined spontaneous "cure" rate and "cure" rate in AA is 10% per year...i think that is pretty good...and then if you combine that with people that go to non-12-step recovery support groups....that would be even more...so...though it is often touted it is not the destination, but the journey, i believe, when you're speaking of a disease...it is the destination, not the journey that counts...doesn't matter how you got here, but that you got here...


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 4:03:29 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		The same number of people arrive at the destination on their own journey as do on the AA bus, not twice as many. Even 10% could hardly be considered a great success rate for the gold standard of interventions.


Z.

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 9:07:20 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
the spontaneous "cure" rate without any intervention is 5% per annum. The "cure" rate in AA is 5% per annum. Wow, what a success.


indeed, what a combined success, combined spontaneous "cure" rate and "cure" rate in AA is 10% per year...i think that is pretty good...and then if you combine that with people that go to non-12-step recovery support groups....that would be even more...so...though it is often touted it is not the destination, but the journey, i believe, when you're speaking of a disease...it is the destination, not the journey that counts...doesn't matter how you got here, but that you got here...

The point is is that AA is no more effective than doing nothing. 

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 9:49:51 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		dudes...they can't be talking about the same 5% of people...because you can't be "spontaneously cured" and "cured through AA" at the same time!

so whatever works for the person is good for the person, and i don't care if that means they have to pile trash on their head and sing kumbay-ya every morning in order to function as a contributing member of society...

oh yea, and interventions are considered sucessful if they get the person to treatment, not if the person stays clean/sober...i know the stats, my S.O. be an interventionist...he's trying to change that, with his interventions at least...

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 3/2/2008 9:51:30 AM >

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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 11:41:21 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		I really don't understand why people like to wholesale bash something that either does or might work for other people.  If I developed cancer I would look at every possible cure and treatment available and try as many as I could until something worked.  Even if a particular cure didn't work for me that wouldn't mean it didn't or couldn't work for someone else.  It seems sometimes that some just have prejudices that make them loathe a particular direction.  Saying "that didn't work for me" seems like a statement of fact whereas "that thing is crap" is pure conjecture.  I hope that someone looking for a solution to their problem doesn't take someone else's biased opinion and not even investigate on their own.

For the record, I have seen people get and stay sober without a 12 step program.  I have seen people get and stay sober in 12 programs.  I have seen people get sober in a 12 step program, quit doing what was working for them and relapse.  I have seen people get sober but not address other mental or emotional issues and die from those issues.  I have also seen people drink and use some drugs and never have a problem with it.  Myself, I have been sober (meaning no drugs or alcohol) for 17 years and before that I couldn't make it 3 hours without a drink or a pill or a needle in my arm.  I don't know that if I stopped doing what got me sober in the first place would result in me being a raging drunk/addict or not but I'm not not willing to take any chances there (much like lets see what would happen if i quit taking the cancer meds that are working).

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 1:21:17 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sings... what the world needs now, is love sweet love... it's the only thing that there's just too little of...

Okay... I may suck... but I do believe that when I saw change in people's lives, it had a sound root in love.  I didn't like what I saw and heard at AA, when I worked at the shelter and took someone there.  I never did it again, though I tried to go to meetings to watch and give it a fair evaluation in my mind.  What I saw that really worked was people involved with people.

In any issues I lived with myself and with others, love was a key to healing.  Self love is major, but I felt that one of the problems in self love teachings was that is was so focused in self.  To know the full benefits of love, in my opinion was the giving and receiving and I don't feel that you can benefit fully unless you are both receiving and giving it.  Many say you cannot love until you first love yourself. I disagree greatly with this.  We may not love completly or in perfection, but everyone can love in some way, even if they don't yet know how to fully love themselves.

Can someone overcome without love?  Sure...  I just think that love and human involvement with others has a big role to play in the healing of anything.  With self accountabilty and structure... people can overcome most anything.

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 5:02:16 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		OK, some elementary school math for those who seem numerically challenged.

AAmembership in US about 1.2 million.
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=74

As of 2004, it is estimated that about 18 million Amis are alcoholics/abusers.

5% of 1.2 million is 60,000. 5% of 18 million is 900,000. Do I need to explain further?

BTW, Lockit, fine post. Pity you're a top.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/2/2008 5:03:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 5:10:18 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

BTW, Lockit, fine post. Pity you're a top.



LOL... thank you!... lol... but I ahhh... kinda like being a top!

< Message edited by Lockit -- 3/2/2008 5:11:53 PM >

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RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 5:20:37 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I agree with a lot of what Julia has said. 

The entire God-centered approach to healing substance abuse would not work for me.  And I'm sure there are many others whom it wouldn't work for as well.  I would be more comfortable with a program that focused on building the individual's strength and coping skills, instead of handing things over to God.  Some of the steps in the program would be useful.  I think change is most useful when it comes from within, instead of expecting a diety to remove a problem.  Addiciton isn't just something that can be fixed by changing the way a person thinks, it's a physical response to a foreign substance, especially in those addictions where there is a physical dependence component.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: An Alternative to 12 step programs: the 16 steps - 3/2/2008 5:37:44 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

BTW, Lockit, fine post. Pity you're a top.



LOL... thank you!... lol... but I ahhh... kinda like being a top!
Yeah, I dig that, but I can only (he says wistfully) see things from my POV.  Peace

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 32
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