RE: "The Needs of a Slave"

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Justme696 -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 11:04:18 AM)
quote: "The Needs of a Slave" a slave has his/her hard limits ..that is all

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 11:10:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joy2u But, as for me, i don't need to hear my Master tell me what a good slave i am or that i am accepted by Him. i know i am accepted by Him and that i please Him, otherwise He wouldn't have me here. i learned to accept myself long ago and that's good enough for me. joy Owned servant of Master David I don't think the list said said she needed to be told what a good slave she is or that he accepts her. For me, not ever feeling accepted in my life made me really appreciate feeling of finally being accepted. Master doesn't tell me he accepts me; he lives in a way that is accepting of me. Accepting myself isn't good enough for me if the person I have given myself to doesn't accept me. I don't think I'd want to belong to someone who didn't accept me.

brainiacsub -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 1:41:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub [...snip...] The problem I had with this particular list was that it reinforced every negative stereotype faced by submissive women specifically and kinky folk in general. [...snip...] There were certain things within this list that resonated very strongly with me, but the poor choice of words and expression of ideas far outweighed the values presented in the sentiments. Wow, this is the first list that DIDN'T make me think all those things! It's fascinating the difference in how we see things, isn't it?! It's the only list I've seen that I like, and I'm none of those things above (except the doormat, when he needs to wipe his feet [8D] ). Maybe it's the mood I'm in lately or something...the list made me feel squishy. [:)] It made me think of all the ways he insists that I rely on my inner strength and think quickly on my feet. I'm not trying to be argumentative or criticize your post in any way, btw. I just loved the differences in how oppositely (is that a word?) two people view the same list. So, it made ya feel 'squishy', huh? Yeah, me too. Just another example of how oppositely we see things. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image] Personally, I identify most strongly with ideas and words that make me feel 'empowered', 'enlightened', 'informed', 'persuaded', 'thoughtful', and occasionally, just 'silly.' This list did none of those things for me. It had a kind of 'romantic' spin to it, which I'm sure is what made you feel good. But it didn't seem very practical. Here is one of the more benign ones. Curious to know your thoughts: The need to know that your owner does not fear you in any way and that he does not edit his requirements of you so as to be limited to only those things that you already want to do. I have been reading you in the forums for quite a while now. You seem to be pretty grounded and more self aware than most. I wasn't at all offended by your position and found you neither argumentative nor critical. It's all good.

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 1:56:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub So, it made ya feel 'squishy', huh? Yeah, me too. Just another example of how oppositely we see things. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image] Personally, I identify most strongly with ideas and words that make me feel 'empowered', 'enlightened', 'informed', 'persuaded', 'thoughtful', and occasionally, just 'silly.' This list did none of those things for me. It had a kind of 'romantic' spin to it, which I'm sure is what made you feel good. But it didn't seem very practical. OK. I hear ya. I tend to identify most strongly with those things, too, and I am typically far from romantic. Maybe because I'm laid up with the flu my mind is twisted?! I dunno...but I'm really glad you weren't offended and even happier you asked for my thoughts so we could exchange ideas. I'll share my thoughts on what you posted below. When I'm done, will you do the same? I'm really curious as to how you see them. quote: Here is one of the more benign ones. Curious to know your thoughts: The need to know that your owner does not fear you in any way and that he does not edit his requirements of you so as to be limited to only those things that you already want to do. I have been reading you in the forums for quite a while now. You seem to be pretty grounded and more self aware than most. I wasn't at all offended by your position and found you neither argumentative nor critical. It's all good. First, thank you for the kind words. And thanks for inviting my opinion (I never refuse an opportunity, lol). Here goes: I see this as saying my Master is not intimidated by me. That it is clear to both of us that he is the ultimate authoritarian in the relationship and his rule goes - always. Therefore, he won't compromise his ultimate goal of getting the satisfaction he wants out of his slave, by only giving her the tasks that she prefers to do. If he said "wear black" today and I said "Master I only like to wear red on Thursdays" and he said "Oh, ok, I didn't realize. Red is fine." he would be editing his original direction to telling me something I already wanted to do. Rather, if he said, "I don't give a shit. Starting today you are wearing black on Thursdays" he wouldn't be. That's a really benign example. There are indeed times when what he orders of me isn't that big of a deal to him and he will adjust, if he's in the mood to. But any adjustment comes from his own internal motivation, not because of fear of what I might do if I don't get my way. And that's the kind of Master I need to submit to. He's not afraid of me running off, or threatening to remove my submission, or whining or complaining about his orders. He will get what he wants from me, while of course developing me along at a pace that is healthy for me. Your thoughts??

joy2u -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 2:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: joy2u But, as for me, i don't need to hear my Master tell me what a good slave i am or that i am accepted by Him. i know i am accepted by Him and that i please Him, otherwise He wouldn't have me here. i learned to accept myself long ago and that's good enough for me. joy Owned servant of Master David I don't think the list said said she needed to be told what a good slave she is or that he accepts her. These are statements from "the list" that i was referring to: The need for unconditional love and acceptance. The need to know that your service pleases your owner emotionally and practically and sexually. The need to be stroked and reassured and praised but never in a pandering way. quote: For me, not ever feeling accepted in my life made me really appreciate feeling of finally being accepted. Master doesn't tell me he accepts me; he lives in a way that is accepting of me. Accepting myself isn't good enough for me if the person I have given myself to doesn't accept me. I don't think I'd want to belong to someone who didn't accept me. Like i said, if this is a need for you, that's fine for you and it's good that you have that need being met. i said that it's not a need for me. i know that i wouldn't have ever been brought into my Master's life, if He didn't accept me and i wouldn't still be in His home, if i didn't please Him. i don't need Him to stroke me or reassure me or praise me for just doing what i am here to do, which is to serve Him and satisfy His needs. i understand that many people do have these needs. i'm just not one of them and, like i said in an earlier post on this thread, " Needs, just as with wants, are very subjective". joy Owned servant of Master David

marieToo -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 2:46:05 PM)
I need honesty. I need to know I won't be injured and I need to be used hard. I'm such a simple girl.

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 5:32:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joy2u Like i said, if this is a need for you, that's fine for you and it's good that you have that need being met. i said that it's not a need for me. i know that i wouldn't have ever been brought into my Master's life, if He didn't accept me and i wouldn't still be in His home, if i didn't please Him. i don't need Him to stroke me or reassure me or praise me for just doing what i am here to do, which is to serve Him and satisfy His needs. i understand that many people do have these needs. i'm just not one of them and, like i said in an earlier post on this thread, " Needs, just as with wants, are very subjective". joy Owned servant of Master David Hi Joy, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong or anything, I was just comparing the difference in situations. If my Master didn't accept me it would be weird for me to serve him is all. You said if he didn't accept you he wouldn't have brought you in. I do know of people who bring others in without actually accepting them. My ex husband was one of those. I don't ever want to be in a situation again where I am constantly criticized and corrected for everything I think, say or do. Fortunately my Master is not such a person, thus meeting that "need" of mine. I agree with needs and wants being subjective. I hope you don't think I was arguing away from your point. As for the list, I mentioned there were several things on the list that didn't resonate with me, even though many did. The part about being stroked and reassured is one of them...to a point. If he never ever told me he was pleased with me I might begin to wonder if he enjoyed me, but I don't need such things to devote myself to him. I do find it fulfilling to know my Master is pleased, though. If I didn't please him and wasn't accepted by him, I would wonder what he was doing with me. Again, I'm not arguing your point, just sharing my own in return.

BeingChewsie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 6:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wordstoponder The need for certainty and permanence. The need for containment and clear boundaries of behavior. The need to feel open and unembarrassed gratitude. The need to know that you are not in control and cannot successfully manipulate your owner. The need to know that you are neither required nor permitted to try to dominate yourself and that your owner will provide the force to take you and to own you. The need to know that your owner does not fear you in any way and that he does not edit his requirements of you so as to be limited to only those things that you already want to do. These are the ones that resonated with me. I would really hesitate to call them needs though. They are some of the things that are present in our dynamic.

XiaoTheOwl -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 7:08:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yourbetters I make sure my slaves have no needs. I have needs, they have work to do to fulfill them! ...How's that working out for ya??

XiaoTheOwl -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 7:12:19 PM)
It is interesting the way rules are laid out though... A patteen of an emotional rollarcoaster... Or perhaps being bitter, has slighted my perception...

joy2u -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 7:37:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Hi Joy, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong or anything, I was just comparing the difference in situations. Again, I'm not arguing your point, just sharing my own in return. No, i didn't think that you were saying i was wrong or that you were arguing my point. And, i wasn't saying that you were wrong. You and i just have different points of view and i think that it's good for different points of view to be expressed. "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." ~ Joseph Joubert In this case, the progress is in gaining a better understanding of each other. i can understand that you don't want to be with someone who criticizes and corrects everything you do and say. i wouldn't want that, either. i need to be around someone who is positive and constructive, rather than negative and destructive. It's just that i don't need to hear my Master telling me that i'm pleasing Him. i don't need Him to say, "Thank you" when i do the things that i'm here to do. He's happy. i can see that He's happy. If He were miserable, i would be able to tell and i wouldn't want that. i do know that He's happier with me in His life than He would be without me and that makes me feel good about being here and about what i'm doing. i just don't need Him telling me that. It really is great that you are now in a relationship that is positive and i'm glad that you are happy in your relationship. my relationship is a positive one, also, and i'm happy, too. If that list of needs, or any other list, helps someone to find or express their happiness and fulfillment, then that's good. It's just that it doesn't apply to me or my state of happiness. joy Owned servant of Master David

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 7:52:20 PM)
Thanks for the return post, Joy, and I loved the quote you posted. I think we actually have very similar points of view. I didn't take the "list" to mean we needed to be told how pleased they are, or told thank you, or told we're accepted. I just need to know my Master is pleased...content...fulfilled. Like you, if he is not, I won't be happy. It's not the feedback that is important, it is that the man is happy. :) My best to you.

BitaTruble -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 8:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I just need to know my Master is pleased...content...fulfilled. Like you, if he is not, I won't be happy. It's not the feedback that is important, it is that the man is happy. :) My best to you. You know, this is so important (sorry for the quickie highjack OP!) to me because I've got quite a large empathic streak and when Himself is unhappy it has an altering effect on my own mood. In essence, I do get some kind of feedback because I can tell when he's happy and when he's not, but certainly when he's happy it does make life around these parts a whole lot easier on me and the dog! [;)] Celeste

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/28/2008 10:24:43 PM)
I'm sorry, but I about half laughed at half the things on the list. Many of these things are somewhat of a romantic idealism. Reality has a way of screwing with romantic idealisms at times. I think the OP sees where reality comes into play as well with his line of questioning as well. Not all submissives or slaves have the same needs, wants and desires. It's best to explore a sub/slave mentally to figure this out. Basically don't try to apply a precanned list of needs to somebody. Unconditional love and acceptence is more of thing a parent gives thier children (however even many parents have limits to how much unconditional love and acceptence they can humanly give at times). Basically, there are limits to how far many of these things can go. These are idealisms and human beings have all these wonderful flaws as well as strengths. Both Masters and sub/slaves will fail to live up to an idealism at some point in time. Different people have different needs. Some people are seeking to be treated like mere fuck meat property without all the love and romantic stuff. Some people want to have a deep loving D/s relationship that involves marriage, the house with the white picket fence and 2.5 kids. Some slaves want to be whored out and used and shared by their masters and have no desire for the married life. Basically, a list like this should be used as a tool to make one thing deeper about things. Figure out as a Dom what you are willing to give as well as what you want, and the same goes with sub/slaves. Feel these needs and wants out with each other and go from there.

joy2u -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 4:58:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave Different people have different needs. Some people are seeking to be treated like mere fuck meat property without all the love and romantic stuff. Some people want to have a deep loving D/s relationship that involves marriage, the house with the white picket fence and 2.5 kids. Some slaves want to be whored out and used and shared by their masters and have no desire for the married life. True but, some of us, probably most of us, fall outside these simple and limited cliches of whore, fuckmeat or "average soccer mom" and we (well, me, at least) just want to be treated like the unique persons that we are. Being owned doesn't have to mean being treated like this or that stereotype. In fact, not all Dominants/Masters, want a slave who is a stereotype or cliche. It's a big world with a lot of different ownership styles and a lot of submissive styles. quote: Basically, a list like this should be used as a tool to make one thing deeper about things. Figure out as a Dom what you are willing to give as well as what you want, and the same goes with sub/slaves. Feel these needs and wants out with each other and go from there. Okay, but this list is very limited and there are many other needs and wants to be considered. joy Owned servant of Master David

brainiacsub -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 7:02:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie First, thank you for the kind words. And thanks for inviting my opinion (I never refuse an opportunity, lol). Here goes: I see this as saying my Master is not intimidated by me. That it is clear to both of us that he is the ultimate authoritarian in the relationship and his rule goes - always. Therefore, he won't compromise his ultimate goal of getting the satisfaction he wants out of his slave, by only giving her the tasks that she prefers to do. If he said "wear black" today and I said "Master I only like to wear red on Thursdays" and he said "Oh, ok, I didn't realize. Red is fine." he would be editing his original direction to telling me something I already wanted to do. Rather, if he said, "I don't give a shit. Starting today you are wearing black on Thursdays" he wouldn't be. That's a really benign example. There are indeed times when what he orders of me isn't that big of a deal to him and he will adjust, if he's in the mood to. But any adjustment comes from his own internal motivation, not because of fear of what I might do if I don't get my way. [...snip...] Your thoughts?? So your interpretation is not too far off from mine. I bolded the points I thought were important. For me, it actually goes a little further than that, though. Beyond compromise and adjustments, I also need for him to never be apologetic about his own needs and desires. That doesn't mean that I cannot set limits or have boundaries, but I certainly don't want him to 'mold' his expectations to match mine. I picked this one for us to compare notes because it was relatively straight forward and not disagreeble. I think most on this forum would find this one among the least offensive, and yet when I read it, I just wanted to roll my eyes and whisper a few choice words of profanity for good measure. Why is it that you would swoon and I would hurl after reading something that we both fundamentally agree with? The difference is in how we viewed the presentation. The list made no distinction between need and choice. As written, it presents a picture of someone with an unhealthy mind and spirit. There is a difference between needing love, acceptance, and security and choosing to accept guidance, allow discipline, and relinquish control to have it. You see? The list was poorly written, not necessarily borne of bad ideas. A list like this requires the skills of someone with the gift of language, like subtee or kittinSol, in order to produce something that is inspirational and meaningful. As written, it is very amateurish.

ownedgirlie -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 7:27:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub ...I also need for him to never be apologetic about his own needs and desires. That doesn't mean that I cannot set limits or have boundaries, but I certainly don't want him to 'mold' his expectations to match mine. Good point, and I'll agree with this, too, other than I can not and do not set limits or have boundaries to him. But I agree with your point about not being apologetic; it would disturb me if he was. quote: Why is it that you would swoon and I would hurl after reading something that we both fundamentally agree with? The difference is in how we viewed the presentation. The list made no distinction between need and choice. As written, it presents a picture of someone with an unhealthy mind and spirit. There is a difference between needing love, acceptance, and security and choosing to accept guidance, allow discipline, and relinquish control to have it. You see? The list was poorly written, not necessarily borne of bad ideas. You're right - the difference is in our interpretation. It is true the list did not go into detail that in order to receive some of these needs, one must make choices about one's conduct in order to meet them. I was looking at it from my own narrow point of view, that it goes without saying that in order to have one's needs met, one must put forth the effort. I certainly don't expect to hang around here like a vegetable and for my Master to simply grant such things because I've determined I need them. No, I have endured blood, sweat and tears to receive what I have, and he believes I have earned the privilege to have them as a result. It never dawned on me, when I read this sweet little list, to assume such things would be freely given simply because I wanted (or "needed") them. quote: A list like this requires the skills of someone with the gift of language, like subtee or kittinSol, in order to produce something that is inspirational and meaningful. As written, it is very amateurish. While there are a great many folks who could have done a better job at creating the list, I wasn't looking at it to be a great and inspirational piece; rather I thought it was a sweet list that reflected much of what I had attained through a lot of effort. But I understand now why we responded so differently to the list. Thanks for note comparison. It was a fun exercise which demonstrated how differently a simple sentence or two can be viewed and how we interpret things based on our own experiences and principles. I appreciate your taking the time to do so. [:)]

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 8:09:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joy2u True but, some of us, probably most of us, fall outside these simple and limited cliches of whore, fuckmeat or "average soccer mom" and we (well, me, at least) just want to be treated like the unique persons that we are. Being owned doesn't have to mean being treated like this or that stereotype. In fact, not all Dominants/Masters, want a slave who is a stereotype or cliche. It's a big world with a lot of different ownership styles and a lot of submissive styles. I figured I'd toss out two contrasting stereotypes to illustrate the point I was trying to make. Actually, I hate the stereotyping as much as I do some of the lists at times. I think precanned lists can be a great tool to provoke thought, however it best to figure out ones own list in life and embrace the unique person. Good old fashioned Communication works great at figuring out what a sub/slaves needs are. If a sub/slave can't communicate these things then that's another problem to deal with. Oh wait, there are the so called "Do Me" submissives that I'm certain can come up with a detailed laundry list of things. LOL.. The thing is when it comes to needs, wants, and desires it's something that both people in a relationship need to understand and communicate. Simply reading precanned lists and hoping that is the answer does not cut it.

Leatherist -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 8:39:51 AM)
One of the more ludicrous aspects of bdsm is the "fantasy expectation of perfect". An individual daydreams how great a "structured relationship" would be, and then proceeds to craft a neat little house for it to all fit into. It usually ends up consisting of a list, or list of rules and expected behaviors (protocols) Unfortunately this tends to happen in the abscence of another individual, and ends up being a total waste of time, being written for nobody. Kinda reminds me of a Beatle's lyric..... He's a real nowhere man..... sitting in his nowhere land...... making all his nowhere plans.... for nobody...... [:D]

Aswad -> RE: "The Needs of a Slave" (2/29/2008 9:04:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 I don't recall seeing those needs on Maslow's heirarchy.... Me neither. Seems to me that people always make these lists too generic (in terms of the targets being "described") and too specific (in terms of how they are being described). Kind of reminds me about the old discussion on the other side regarding criterion; everyone was keeping it so specific that nobody's ideas aligned. It was still quite possible to arrive at something that was generic enough to describe it, though. Same probably goes here, but takes more than mere pop psych and anecdotal input (or, worse yet, one's own personal experience). Health, al-Aswad.

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