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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:57:25 PM   
bleusparkles


Posts: 168
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bitch2humiliate

Is Masochism self harm by proxy?
No. Self-harm and BDSM related activities are two vastly different animals.

Does a good whipping bring about the same release as self harming does?
Maybe for some people (endorphin junkies come to mind) but for me personally, no.

What are the differences or similiarities between the 2 if any?
Uhm ... I don't know. I mean, there's the obvious endorphin release. And there's aftercare. Many self-harmers actually injure themselves so they have a reason to give themselves aftercare. I don't know beyond that.

Is a self harmer a masochist or a masochist a self harmer?
I think that can go either way but it doesn't have to. I self-harm and I am also a masochist. These two facts are exclusive of eachother for me.



I started self-harming after a failed suicide attempt when I was 14. I didn't kill myself but nurturing myself afterwards, cleaning and caring for the wounds, was extremely soothing for me. For a long time it was something I did on nearly a daily basis. It gave me a reason to do something very kind for myself ... I would create physical wounds so I could tend to them. Some people speculate that the reason for this is intense psychological pain that I didn't know any other way to express or deal with. That could be ... Or it could be that I just liked the attention. Not from other people, because I would keep my cuts hidden, but from myself.

At this point, I've started taking more time for myself regardless of whether I'm injured or not. I don't hurt myself as often anymore. Usually when I do its after something extremely frustrating has happened; an event which makes me feel powerless or out of control. I'm extremely ritualistic about it and sometimes the rituals before cutting are enough to make me not want to cut anymore. Rituals like lining up the "tools", disinfecting both my "tools" and my skin, having particular music, lighting and location, etc.

Scening is totally different from self-harm. When I self-harm I'm taking control. I'm saying, "This is MY body. I'll do whatever I want with it. NO ONE can stop me." When I scene, I surrender completely to someone else's control. I'm giving them my body for the duration of the scene to do with whatever THEY want. I could stop them if I wanted to but generally I don't. Surrendering is completely different feeling. After a scene I generally feel extremely satisfied and positive whereas after self-harm I feel totally drained and ashamed ... Negative.


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bleu's a bit whimsical in the brainpan ...

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:58:59 PM   
dollparts85


Posts: 1233
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: NY
Status: offline 		One of my old therapists said that self injury is just a form of "self masturbation" when she said that I was so upset and embarrassed LOL I was 18 at the time and had used cutting to help with my anxiety and social phobia since I was 12.

(in reply to colouredin)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:59:13 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Ahhh now i get it lol sorry missed that, ta :D

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 2:56:16 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

I'm no guru so I really don't remember how my mind worked at the time. We had just started incorporating more fluid bonding rituals in our relationship before this happened.  I had some cutting experience prior but not a lot.  We did a lot of cutting in our relationship usually for rituals and not just for kink, honestly looking back, this was probably a ritual of sorts as well.

I never felt I was an enabler of her cutting as she never cut herself again.  I will say though if after our first cutting she came to me and asked me to cut her or she needed cutting as a cleansing (I have heard other selfcutters use this term before) then maybe I would have been alarmed.

Best,
DDZ-


*nods, slowly*

self-injury is something that i struggle with, daily.  and when its been a while since my Daddy has been able to see me and give me the pain/release i need, its worse.  he knows this.  and we *do* discuss it often.

i cut to relieve emotional stress.  and Daddy knows i'm under a lot of it at the moment, and *does* understand...at the same time, i am under standing orders to protect his property and keep it from deliberate injury.  *sighs*

what is really  hard is when i begin to have accidents, and i am honestly not sure if it is unconsciously deliberate or not.  both of my hands are injured right now.  i skint knuckles, catching my rings on things.  i wear these rings 24/7, and have for years. this is NOT anything new.  but i hurt myself.

i am absolutely allowed to tell Daddy that i need pain, that i need for him to hurt me in the good ways.  and he always listens to me, and cares enough that he follows through to hurt me to keep me from hurting myself.  and when he does i'm good for several weeks after. 

its not a perfect answer, we know this.  but its better that he hurt me out of love than have me hurt myself and maybe get injured more than intended.

kitten, very thoughtfully

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)
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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 4:12:24 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		too much psycho-babble to worry about for me...

the one thing i know for sure is:  i'm a masochist and i don't self-harm!

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 4:39:03 PM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysliloneds

too much psycho-babble to worry about for me...

the one thing i know for sure is:  i'm a masochist and i don't self-harm!


Ditto here.  I'm a masochist but don't do it myself (unless you call working out in the gym self-abuse...lol).  I've never done the self-mutilation thing, couldn't see a reason to.  Handling normal pain, broken bones, childbirth....eh, enough for me!  Found out I only like the gooooood pain 

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 5:56:27 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		When anything controls you, it has become self-harm.  It's comes in many forms.  Sure, masochsim could be one of them.  Just like cutting.

There is no real physical difference if I cut my thigh or my Dominant cuts my thigh.  So if there is a difference, it's between the ears. 

I think it's in motivation.  'Am I doing this because I want to or because I am out of control?'



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(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 10:17:43 PM   
shysub0951


Posts: 132
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline 		i'm a self harmer but do not consider myself a masochist in anyway whatsoever. A good "beating" for me doesn't have the same effect as when i self harm. Don't know why though, still can't figure that out.    My Dom can beat me until i'm black and blue and it won't do anything for me besides hurt and i always end up crying. But with the self harming, i don't feel pain until the next day or whatever. Could be the adrenaline going when i self harm and i can't get up that adreniline when getting a "beating". 

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/4/2008 7:23:32 AM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		I am a masochist. I get sexual satisfaction from the pain as well as emotional and mental relaxation. I am not into self-harm. I do not deliberately cut, mutilate or inflict masochistic pain on myself..well not unless you include setting my insulin cannula and taking my symlin shots in interesting places self infliction.

Interestingly enough however, I have found that if I am not getting enough pain in my life to satisfy the craving, and I start entering Frenzy, I do become far more accident prone. But none of it is deliberate and when it happens I do seek immediate relief.

poenkitten

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/12/2008 3:37:23 PM   
CountrySong


Posts: 554
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		My EX was a cutter at one time and also had several suicide attempts. She wanted healing but never could find it. The professionals did not help.

Her pain also affected me because I love her. I could not find a way to deal with it effectively. I would not let her cut herself.

One day I asked her if she wanted to try something. I handed her a flog I had made and turned on her dark music. Then I bit a leather strap and let her flog me while visualizing the lake of pain within her flowing out of her arm and into me. She when a bit bizzerk but I took it. five songs later when she was done she cared for me rubbing cream onto the welts.

It helped her but it did not solve the core issues so we repeated it when she needed it.

She has a new partner now. One who is not in the lifestyle. She still lives with her pain and I feel that one day I will attend her funeral because now she has even fewer ways to deal with her pain.

I wrote about it in my journal in an entry called Spiritual Pain.

I don't know if it will help anyone of you doing self harm but i hope it will.

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/12/2008 4:22:48 PM   
midgetmafiosa


Posts: 195
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Maine, and SLC, UT
Status: offline 		Like many, I was a self-harmer. Haven't done it in a few years, and have no plans to again. I used to push my body past its limits in sports and other activities to "prove" I could handle it. Then, in college, I had a breakdown, and the only way I could express the anger and frustration I felt was through self-injury. The incidents lessened as I went through therapy and medication, and gradually tapered off. I am now not a masochist in the least. I really don't enjoy pain at all. A light spanking, some hair pulling, biting, sure, but beyond that, I want nothing to do with it. Pain for me used to be about total control, and proving that I was strong enough to handle it. I don't need that sort of validation anymore.

(in reply to CountrySong)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/12/2008 4:40:06 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I was never a self-harmer. I think of self harming as a way to deal with the stresses and strains of life, especially during puberty. I also think of it as being a maladaptive way of coping. I don't think anyone would think that it is normal to cut oneself.

As far as masochism goes - i had a therapist who described the BDSM lifestyle as being a normal human varient of sexual behaviour. He said if human sexuality was described on a curve, we would be at the far end of it - but still on the curve of normal. I don't pretend to understand the pathology of why i enjoy the process of pain, but then i really don't need to for me.  The same therapist said we as humans sexualize the things that hurt us as children - so if this is true, then as a child i was hurt, and now sexualize that pain. Dominants escape the pain by being the ones to inflict it, and we both get sexual satisfaction from it. I have to wonder if this isn't true, because a lot of the time, i don't want an orgasm with my pain. The sensations of pain, and how they take me out of myself is so satifying in-and-of themselves.

So the way i see it, is that masochism is a normal if not socially acceptable varient of human sexuality, while cutting, although on the surface seems similar, is not a normal human sexual varient.. i think we are talking apples and potatoes here.

(in reply to midgetmafiosa)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/12/2008 4:56:38 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bitch2humiliate

Is Masochism self harm by proxy?
Does a good whupping bring about the same release as self harming does?
What are the differences or similiarities between the 2 if any?
Is a self harmer a masochist or a masochist a self harmer?

Your thoughts on the above questions or any other comments on the subject would be welcomed as I am trying to put together a document on the above subject and would be really interested in other peoples opinions, views or experiences.. I wont out my personal opinions forward just yet because I dont want to influence the replies in any way.

If you would rather reply personally via the messages function on this site then please feel free to do so... if i do manage to put together an article on it please be assured that no names or direct references will be used as i understand how personal things like this can be.

Many thanks to any and all that respond

His little bitch



Is boxing self-harm by proxy?  Harm will be done, very likely more physical harm than the average cutter.experiences.

Is surgery self harm by proxy? Harm will be done, even if it aims at a greater good.

Is running for President self-harm by proxy? Cause you know the other side is gonna rip you up.

This "self harm by proxy" has the ring of something heavily loaded with meaning.  I presume you mean by it to refer to a pathology.

There are clearly plenty of sorts of self-harm (by proxy or otherwise) which would be commonly recognized as pathological (e.g. cutting), and plenty which wouldn't (see above list, plus body-building, foregoing nutrition to feed your family, etc.)

Furthermore, there is nothing in the term "masochist" which requires that a person hurt himmself or submit to being hurt by others. As I understand it a masochist is a masochist whether or not he has ever engaged in masochistic behavior. The word names a tendency or proclivity, not an activity

If when you say "self-harmer" you mean someone who actually harms himself then we can see at least one discontinuity between the terms masochist and self-harmer.

I think your paper would benefit from leaving the "IS this THAT" language out altogether. To explore the similarities, differences and overlaps between dianosed pathological self-harmers and BDSM masochists seems worthwhile. Many insights could be gained. Whereas settling the question of "IS this THAT" will not happen as a result of noticing or identifying any facts in the world. It will come down to the definitions you apply to the words.

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 10:25:59 AM   
metalmiss


Posts: 341
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Croydon, UK
Status: offline 		Being a masochist who was once a self harmer, i have to say that there's a huge difference between the two in my opinion.
When i was self harming it was an attempt to make the negativity and pain i was feeling emotionally and couldn't deal with into something physical that i found easier to deal with. It was a release. But it was completely different type of release to the one i experience through my masochistic side.

The masochism is not emotional, it is not brought on or triggered by negative feelings as my self harming was. i see my masochism as a very positive thing, the pain is something which i adore (despite my protests), crave, desire, with everything that i am.. But in that i love it for the adrenaline, the pure thrill of hurt & danger, playing on the edge of sane.
Nothing like self harming ever was to me.

Another difference between the two which is perhaps worth mentioning.. My masochism is something i take pride in.. i love showing my friends the bruises or marks i might have at any time.. When i was a self harmer, it was something which i found embarassing.. it was hidden away & it took a long time for anyone to notice anything.. Because that was not the intention, my self harm was not an attempt attention seeking.

Hope this helps x


_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

Owned by RavenMuse

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 11:07:25 AM   
sublibrarian


Posts: 96
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		I think that the endorphin release in the brain is probably similar for the two activities, but I know from being both a bit of a masochist and from previously being a self-cutter that the feeling afterward can be similar. Both self-infliction and pain inflicted by my Dom can be really calming for me. But as others have said the mindset going into it is completely different. I went into self-harm from a very dark, depressed, painful place. Whereas my masochistic activities come from a sexual, sensory place. There may be a similar result but I think they come from different places.

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 1:14:07 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublibrarian

I think that the endorphin release in the brain is probably similar for the two activities, but I know from being both a bit of a masochist and from previously being a self-cutter that the feeling afterward can be similar. Both self-infliction and pain inflicted by my Dom can be really calming for me. But as others have said the mindset going into it is completely different. I went into self-harm from a very dark, depressed, painful place. Whereas my masochistic activities come from a sexual, sensory place. There may be a similar result but I think they come from different places.


I don't have any personal experience with self-harming, and very little second-hand exposure. I feel as though I have learned a lot about it in this thread. I'm grateful to everyone who has posted sharing their personal experiences and insights.

(in reply to sublibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 3:13:50 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
So if there is a difference, it's between the ears. 

I think it's in motivation.  'Am I doing this because I want to or because I am out of control?'


as a recovering self cutter (i hadn't outright did it until 2 months ago in a couple of years, like adoracat, i often have injuries without knowing where they come from) and a pain pig - masochist i can definately atest to this...and i have often not played even when i really, really wanted to when my mind set was "because i am out of control" rather than "because i want this"....

it took me a while to get to the point of wanting to do cuttings because of my past history with self-cutting, but i realized with the guidance of others that i can apply the "good pain principle" even to those things that i have an extensive history of "bad pain" with...i love the pain that comes from cuttings, when done by someone else, who has a lot more control than i do...and i love scarification...i am a body art junkie...lol...but again, i won't do it when my mind set is "because i am out of control" ...and the follow up to that is usually "and this will bring me back into control" and it never does...

just my 2 cents
chelle


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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 5:30:37 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		"Self Harmer" ... new term for me, but it fits.

I used to be a bit of a self harmer, nothing suicidal, just cuttings and burns. I'd also demand that a guy friend of mine punch me in the chest, but I'm not sure that's self harm. The more stress I was exposed to, the more severe and frequent it became. It's a short term relief though.

Long story short, I became a professional submissive.  I've found that the pain inflicted by other people completely overrides my urge to do it myself. I'm never cut or burned (by anyone) anymore, but I don't feel the need to do it myself... So I guess it's healthier this way..? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not involved in a D/s relationship, but I think that any relationship I'm going to get into is going to have to be D/s.  It's pretty hard to explain, made worse by the fact that I have the flu, and Nyquil fails at helping me form coherent thoughts.. haha.





< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 4/13/2008 5:32:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/13/2008 8:23:11 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Personally, I used to be worried about that, since I had self-injured in the past, and it made me hesitant to get into BDSM for a long time. But I realized after a while that one had nothing to do with the other. Being spanked or cropped is a turn-on for me - it's a completely different feeling!

(in reply to bitch2humiliate)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 4/14/2008 1:30:52 AM   
Kalista07


Posts: 4240
Joined: 7/1/2007
Status: offline 		i have many many thoughts on this subject, and am having difficulty sorting them out coherently.  i must say to begin with that i am a recovering self injurer. i haven’t harmed myself in any deliberate capacity for 1 year  now.  It’s amazing because it didn’t even occur to me how long it had been until i read this. For me there is a big difference between self injury and masochism.  The difference begins with my intention, and carries itself all the way to the method or the carrying out of the activity. For my self injury, for many many years no one knew about it. It was the only way i could cope and stay alive.  It was a coping mechanism (a pretty dangerous one, but a coping mechanism none the less).  The problem for me (and for many people) is it became addictive, and it nearly took on a life of its own.  

i don’t think it’s in any way compared to my masochism because my motives are completely different, i’m not doing it in secret, and i don’t have a huge urge to try and control it. Incidentally, unlike many other people’s experiences here i will not do a scene with knifes.  Despite the fact that i find them rather hot, i can not allow myself to be involved intimately with a knife. It’s a huge trigger for me, and thankfully for me He knows it.

i realize this was not part of the question, but hell......i’m on a roll... he he he.... i think the biggest part in what has precipitated my being able to stop the tug of war game from hell on weather or not to self injure has been the relationship i’m currently in.  Despite the fact that it’s far from perfect, despite the fact that He’s got issues to work on, and despite the fact that currently there’s no significant M/s dynamics going on we have soooo much more.  For the first time in my life i truly believe i am a worthwhile person.  For the first time in my life i believe i have value. For the firs time in my life i believe i deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. For the first time in my life i’m in a relationship where i feel happy, supported, valued, encouraged, and honored....................
Rambling on,
Kali

_____________________________

“Love me when I least deserve it, because that's when I really need it.”
~~Sweedish Proverb


(in reply to graceadieu)
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