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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Meanwhile, the psycho housewife from New Jersey is still on the run. Has anybody called an ambulance yet?

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ORIGINAL: colouredin

hey you hold her down ill handcuff her then we can have tea and cake :D

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

By the way, I follow the news here in America very closely, and have no idea what left field this statement comes from.

"China is the nation that appears to be the one that in the future will have the power to challenge the US, which is the reason for much anti-Chinese hysteria in the American media."

If there is anti-Chinese hysteria going on over here, I must have missed it.

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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Weird justification for war. When I first started reading this post I thought aah! someone who has a little national self reflection, someone who dares to look in the mirror and not flinch at what she sees.

Lady, the world owes America nothing, you could say American innovation, advancement in science and technology are for a large part down to European born and educated scientists and inventors. You know, like Nazi rocket scientists (I jest but not completely). The US is part of a western culture that has exploited, murdered and enslaved people for hundreds of years. You have troops in something like 50 countries in the world, not for US defence but for the enforcement of free trade (largely unfair one way free trade), the same imperial aims of the British Empire. Of course China is the nation that appears to be the one that in the future will have the power to challenge the US, which is the reason for much anti-Chinese hysteria in the American media. The idea that the west is somehow a benigh culture doesn't hold up to a modicum of scrutiny. The west has proved to be the most venal and blood thirsty of all cultures. Yes, other cultures aren't full of peace loving hippies but it is the west that conquered much of the world, imposed its world view on most of the globe and has been happy to slaughter anyone who disagrees. The oil you fight over IS NOT YOURS. If a country invaded the US for its natural resources you wouldn't call them law abiding and civilised, not matter what the fuck they invented or discovered and you wouldn't consider they needed thanking for the privilege of conquering you.

You know, your first impression of me was correct. I am not above acknowledging the painful truth about myself and my country when warranted. But unlike you, I am above spewing hateful venom and diatribe unsupported by history or the facts. Your view was rather 'unbalanced.' I am a pragmatist and realist. I see the world as it is, and try to work within those realities to solve problems. And for the record, I never created a justification for war, I only said that it was inevitable.

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ORIGINAL: colouredin

I love how in a debate like this people use the terms right and wrong like somehow in relation to poltics suddenly everything is black and white rather than an opinion which is what it is. No matter how much logic you throw at someone they can always throw it back, and because its an issue that people feel for they will do it ten times harder. When i did history at uni I loved how you could so easily argue both sides we actually had a debate about the russian power struggle and stalin STILL won despite the fact that we knew about what happened afterwards.

I dont agree with the war in iraq, i havent since day one I have many reasons for it, and I know that one of the things it has done has created huge divides between people in terms of their opinions, in England the general consensus has become to hate America, something that I dont agree with but  everyone has to shuffle blame somewhere, which is fundementally why the war started in the first place.

We can all argue semantics and "well this is how the world work"  and that is what always makes me saddest, sure its how the world works that doesnt make it good or right, and if we all lie down then yeah it will carry on fucking us.

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ORIGINAL: colouredin

I dont see them as pointless, its the language that gets to me, I enjoy a debate until it turns offensive and personal, sometimes people need to distence themselves a bit or they can be offensive. As i mentioned i went to uni, practically all we did there was debate so i know how valid it is as a form of changing views but yeah I agree that its not so much the talking about what you think that helps but the listening to what others say, I love listening till it becomes all playground "no im right your wring so there" "well yeah but you smell so there" i cant be doing with any of that crap. 

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ORIGINAL: DesertRat


Oooo...I get to have my cake and eat it, too? Cool! Maybe no one will notice the hypocrisy.

Okay...so as long as we say we're sorry, we can do whatever we want? That's the philosophy of the typical abuser, isn't it?

So settle down; we're torturing you for your own good. And we just had to kill your mom and kids, too. You'll thanks us someday. 

No contradiction there...nosiree. Care for another cup of tea/no tea? 

Wow, that's really something to be proud of. Shout it from the rooftops!!

Bob

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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

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ORIGINAL: DesertRat


Oooo...I get to have my cake and eat it, too? Cool! Maybe no one will notice the hypocrisy.

Okay...so as long as we say we're sorry, we can do whatever we want? That's the philosophy of the typical abuser, isn't it?

So settle down; we're torturing you for your own good. And we just had to kill your mom and kids, too. You'll thanks us someday. 

No contradiction there...nosiree. Care for another cup of tea/no tea? 

Wow, that's really something to be proud of. Shout it from the rooftops!!

Bob

Bob, I won't respond to you point for point, because you clearly missed mine. For example, just because I am an advocate for conservation, preservation, and moderation, but also recognize that the majority of my fellow countrymen do not share this view does not make me a hypocrite. I also never advocated that it is ok to kill and torture others for our benefit or anyone else's. I am certainly not a supporter of the current war. Where did you get this idea that I believe it is morally acceptable to wage indiscriminate war against women and children? You took an alarmist position for what purpose? If you disagree with me, then say why you disagree and be prepared to defend your position. I'll certainly defend mine or come around to yours. How does demonizing me and mine help you or anyone else who is trying to understand this very complex issue?

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Please tell me, what did I say that is unspported by history or the facts?

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I'd hate to live in your world if war is inevitable. War is never inevitable. What was inevitable about the Iraq debacle? A President lied to his people to start a war for what reason we can only guess. It is sad that so many people really believed him when he said Iraq had WMD and even more sad and alarming that there are still people who believe the war is right and just and even more alarming that the USA might vote in another President that thinks the war in Iraq is right.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I do care.  This Marine was and remains quite disgusted by the acts perpetrated by US military personnel on prisoners of war at Abu Ghraib, as well as the ongoing illegal incarcerations at Guantanimo.   We do not win a war on terror by becoming indistinguishable from the terrorists themselves.

In this so-called "war on terror", the enemy is not Islam, but thuggish murderers with no conception of the value of human life.  The Al Qaida terrorists are not Muslims, but murderers.  They showed that in Bali.  They have as much connection to the Koran as a side of bacon.  Disrespecting the Koran makes enemies out of Muslims who might otherwise be useful allies.

Self-righteous anger sounds so very noble.  Unfortunately, as Iraq demonstrates so clearly, it also tends to up the body counts on both sides.

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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Stella, there are so many things wrong with what you said that  I would have to write a dissertation to counter it all. But I won't; I'll pick just two.

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ORIGINAL: stella41b
[...snip...]
Feel free to continue advocating the fight and struggle for what remains of the world's resources but wouldn't it be much better to accept a greater degree of social responsibility and learn to share with others the resources left and actually work towards fighting poverty and crime?

First, I am not an advocate for war. I only said that it is in our nature and if we are going to fight for our own survival,  I want to be on the winning side. I am an advocate for social responsibility, both domestically and abroad, but it doesn't change the fact that with each generation, more and more people will be competing for fewer and fewer resources. Conservation now is a good start, but will only delay the inevitable. Our only hope is that any real effort toward conservation will buy us enough time to allow the technology to catch up and save our sorry asses.

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We talk of democracy and freedom but yet are happy to vote for governments who are out of touch with the needs of the people they represent.

We have voted for a government that is very much in touch with the needs of the people. That is part of the problem. We enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, and any government that mandates, or even suggests, the people limit themselves to say 25 glns of gas per week, or pay $6.00/gln, or eat out only twice per month, or never throw away edible food, or stop buying electronics, cars, yet another outfit or pair of shoes and instead give that money to the poor, would not stay elected for long. The problem is not our government, it is the people.

No, the role for government is to set policy that will encourage, not stifle, innovation and research in to solving this and other problems. Oil and gas is very profitable business right now and I want a government that will see beyond that and not allow the energy lobby to dictate policy.

On a final note, don't be so naive Stella, to think that if the US laid down it's arms and decided to make 'peace' with the world, that the world would necessarily want to make peace with us. When push comes to shove, humans are as savage a creature as has ever roamed this earth. It's best that we not forget that.

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ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

The un educated are lead by war mongering "religous leaders" preaching about a better way" through intollerance and war. How evil and godless the other side is. How they have no morals.. how they hate, and revile thier very way of life.. how they will come and kill off thier families if but given the chance.. so thier followers belive this..

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If war is in our nature then how can you explain the fact that the majority of this world is actually living in peace? Conflict is in our nature, agreed, but war isn't, and is nothing more than a sign of human failing. Wars are won through sitting down and negotiating settlements, not through throwing bombs at each other.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

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If war is in our nature then how can you explain the fact that the majority of this world is actually living in peace? Conflict is in our nature, agreed, but war isn't, and is nothing more than a sign of human failing. Wars are won through sitting down and negotiating settlements, not through throwing bombs at each other.

Living in peace?  Like Tibet?  That is only an illusion of peace, merely existing while one side does not have the ability to wage war isn't really a good version of peace.  

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
This is not a peaceful planet, which is why someone once pointed out that self defense is Nature's eldest law.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And war isn't about expressing conflict, a symphony can do that....
It is about violently gaining power over others, which is hardwired into humans (primates, for that matter). 

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ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots

I do care.  I dislike the extremists on either side of the fence.

I might also add that there's not much evidence Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.