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When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 6:47:50 PM   
Griswold


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Status: offline 		It did happen.

Many would argue it was at the end of the century, a decent mark for the end of an era....others could argue that it was during Bush I, and then it slid through Clinton (1), others would say it was Bush II....some say it started in Reagan....

There's no question that the 20th century belonged to America, we owned the currency, we owned production, we owned the ideas.....and some would suggest that this is just a "lull" in the world order...but the truth is....it's clearly someone else's time.

When did it start....and when will our time clearly (definably) end?

And who will own it?

Who's the next Superpower?
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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 6:50:15 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold


Who's the next Superpower?


richard simmons


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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 6:51:00 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		What if there is no "next" superpower?
 
Some say China.... some see Russia rising...... personally, I think if we get our head our of our ass, America can regain what it's lost.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 6:51:00 PM   
Nineveh


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Status: offline 		My vote is for India.  They are rising as the face of freedom in the world.  I think that we will be defined as having ended with the millenium, much as the British empire was seen as ending with the 1800's even if they were still the premiere power in the world after that for a time.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 6:57:03 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

What if there is no "next" superpower?
 
Some say China.... some see Russia rising...... personally, I think if we get our head our of our ass, America can regain what it's lost.


Historically, you're wrong...and I've considered that thought (yours) many times over....

So does that (historically) put us into an ever rising effort to swell the tide?

Because clearly at one point, we owned it....now today...the ever rising....to maintain our edge...it's a bit of a slog, wouldn't you agree?

And with the others....that is a smidge of a climb....eh?

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:05:14 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Gris, I'm not sure what you mean by "swell the tide".
 
The others.... yes, that'd be a heck of a climb, for them to make. The systems they labor under have structural flaws that will prevent it from happening for them.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:19:28 PM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Gris, I'm not sure what you mean by "swell the tide".
 
The others.... yes, that'd be a heck of a climb, for them to make. The systems they labor under have structural flaws that will prevent it from happening for them.


Well, that is actually a very valid point.

All the papers here, of course, want to sell soap...and the latest and greatest addition to the press is our "inevitable" unwinding...and all the reading I do shows that "they" (them that are sneaking up on us) have a bit of doing to do (stuff like building freeways and sewer systems and such)...but as an aside....we are sending them the money to do it all, aren't we?

< Message edited by Griswold -- 3/8/2008 7:21:39 PM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:22:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		       We are a long way from done, Gris.  Remember back in the 80's, when Japan was going to rule the world?

       Even if this is that horrible slide into an economic collapse, we'd be right back, with a much more militant approach.  We really haven't tried being an empire yet.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:31:37 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

..but as an aside....we are sending them the money to do it all, aren't we?


Yup, in large part, we're fueling their growth.  It's a delicate balancing act, this international economic hoo-doo.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:34:57 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      We really haven't tried being an empire yet.



The age of empires is over though. Share your toys with others; they might not give you such a hard time. And stop stealing theirs, by the same token  .

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 7:57:11 PM   
Suzykeu


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Status: offline 		The United States of America has over 300,000,000 people (3rd largest in the world), the 3rd largest land area, the largest GDP of any nation, enough ICBMs to destroy life as we know it repeatedly, and we're still desirable enough to live in that over 10 million people have decided to come into our country illegally. Even Rome, which was in a much worse position than we can possibly be in for the forseeable future took several hundred years to fall.

That being said we do have some economic problems which are slightly troubling. A rise in gas prices is annoying, but they are still low enough that the fine people in the United Kingdom don't really understand why we're complaining. Unemployment is hovering around 4.8% which is slightly higher than we'd like for our ideal Full Employment (about 4.25%). The major concerns are the banking industry which has been suffering from a rather major misfortune, a dying industry spurred on by our antiquated factories that don't have a high enough efficciency rating to make up for higher wages, an automobile industry that has yet to find a half decent business model (Hint: Steal Someone Else's), an energy shortage with no new sources for the next 20 years (If we get started on nuclear reactors now), and a farming issue resulting in higher food prices (Good for farmers, bad for non farmers).

Fortunately, so long as the voters can keep their heads about them and not dive off into extremisim (anti-NAFTA) these problems will mostly work themselves out with moderate attention. And if they don't and America does head into another great depression, we'd be taking China (who doesn't own much of our debt but has a lot of our currency) and the European Union (Major trading partner of the US and China) down with us.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:00:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


The age of empires is over though.



       Based on what?  That we brought down the last one within the last 20 years?

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:09:30 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Huh, when did America ever have an Empire? Its influence in the world was the result of monetary and economic dealings and the underhand support of dictatorships and other dodgy regimes... America never reigned over the Universe, like England did  .

Point is, Rich, the world doesn't revolve around this country... Time to wake up and smell the coffee: America's losing at her own game, and some say, about time, too... it's somebody else's turn. Personally, it doesn't affect me either way: I have no emotional investment in this.

All is for the best in the best of all capitalistic worlds :-) .

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:18:34 PM   
Suzykeu


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Status: offline 		We've had an empire since Admiral Perry's mission to Japan in 1856 which forcibly opened up trade relations with that country. Aferward we had the colony-state of Liberia in Africa, followed by Cuba, the Phillipeans, Guam, and Puerto Rico from the Spanish American War followed by the open door policy in China that gave us a sphere of influence in that region which was the principle cause of the Pacific War in WW2. And of course the annexation of the Kingdom of Hawaii.

But other than that... There's just the economic hegemony that created the Japanese and South Korean meteroic rise in the latter half of the 20th century, our investments into southeast Asia that created Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, etc etc as economic contributiors, the vast funding to the building of oil infastructure and subsequent military involvement in the middle east, and then of course the Marshal Plan and North Atlantic Treaty Orginazation which put an American in charge of all of Free Europe's military and economic stimulus

< Message edited by Suzykeu -- 3/8/2008 8:19:34 PM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:31:09 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I disagree with you... America doesn't have an Empire. America just gained political influence through economic clout... Empires work the other way around...

Empires suck... I wouldn't claim I'm part of one... certainly, the end of the British Empire was a great thing. The shift in power has more than begun, whether you like it or not.

Now, if only we'd work at ensuring the balance doesn't tilt one way or another...

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:38:43 PM   
Suzykeu


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Status: offline 		The British Empire gained the larger part of it's influence through money, with numerous areas letting themselves be incorperated into the greater English Spheres of Influence because they'd make more money that way. And the downfall of the British Empire was hardly a good thing for it's subjects; they saw massive decreases in relitive wealth, the infrastructure budgets shrivled up, and the humane laws that kept everyone working together dissapated. Granted the English former colonies did amazingly better than the French, German, Portugese, or Belgian colonies, but it still hasn't been great for them.

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:45:55 PM   
xBullx


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Though the world may change and its central focus is not always oriented in the same direction one thing remains constant.


He (gender neutral) who is the most determined will discover his objective, he that is willing to sacrifice in largest portion will uncover the vast bounty, he that is most devoted to his toils rightly owns the spoils."


It would seem the author of the above quote might have stumbled upon men that had not been coddled and catered too. Men not awaiting for favor, but rather hunting for opportunity.


America or anyone else has only lost that which they were willing to surrender.






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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:52:57 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		But Bull, you speak as if humanity  has fight over these spoils... there's more than enough resources for everybody... if we spend wisely. Don't you think it would be refreshing to stop fighting and killing each other out of greed and to start looking at the bigger picture? it's all such a waste... all this "my country's bigger than yours"... so pathetic and wasteful...

What legacy is all this leaving for the future generations? I become more nihilistic as I get older, because we are such a desperately selfish, petty specie... yet we have this capacity for beauty and spiritual enlightening... and I won't stop being...

Hopelessly idealistic.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/8/2008 9:05:42 PM >

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 8:57:40 PM   
DesertRat


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I think the Earth's axis shifted in the mid 1970s, during the recession triggered, to a great extent by the OPEC oil embargo. Or maybe when the Beatles were on the Ed Sullivan show for the first time.

Bob

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RE: When was the historical transition? - 3/8/2008 9:00:22 PM   
Suzykeu


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Status: offline 		Ed Sullivan's temper tantrum about being made to have them on the show caused a ripple of karmic destruction to wash over the earth.

Still, the Beatles are worth it.

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