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Online D/s - 7/15/2004 9:14:44 AM   
Tigresss


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		First I want to say this is not a flame post. I fully understand that some think that engaging in fantasy online is their only option and so be it. I would love to hear perspectives on:

1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?

2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life?

Tigress
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 10:14:16 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?


Online relationships come in many flavors, from episodic cyber-sex sessions to the slave or submissive doing just about everything that they do everyday according to the online master's instructions and policies. The relationshiips toward the later end of the spectrum sure look like a committed D/s relationship to me. Are you saying that physical contact is required for the relationship to be "real"?

quote:

2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life?


For the same reason that people put their education on their resumes, and it should be taken about the same way. Participating in an online community like this one, or in some form of online relationship allows one with no experience to explore what D/s might be like in an environment where the stakes aren't quite so high. As with education on a resume, however, it shouldn't be confused with actual experience.

Take care of yourseelf

Leonidas

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 10:23:54 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss

1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?


my only longterm semi-online relationship was with a couple I knew from real time. I moved away to attend college and the realtionship matured through visits home and online conversation.

I don't quite understand having a relationship that has no physical basis at all, but that's just me personally.

Other than that, I did quite a bit of play online, though nothing like a serious relationship. I didn't think I could hold to the level of behavior required for an online relationship where I actually followed through with commands in life. I know myself well enogh to know that without contact that level of control just doesn't exist for me. Still, I engaged in cyberplay because I enjoyed it.

quote:


2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life?


I refer to it because I did that for quite a long time before I was able to move to real time. I began to be invovled with BDSM online before I was legal (when I was about 14). Since I didn't want to risk getting anyone in trouble, and since I wasn't ready for sexual contact and assumed that would be required in any real-life service, I chose to tell people I remained online solely.

So I talk about that experience, because it shaped a lot of my views about BDSM. I learned so much online before I could even consider realtime, it's quite appropriate to mention those experiences to those I have contact with now.

Yea...just me :)

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 10:30:57 AM   
pixieunleashed


Posts: 105
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		About 4 years ago, I did the online only thing, I was fortunate to bring myself real time in a matter of months, however, during that time, I felt it was the biggest thing that ever happened to me. I would run home to the computer every day, be obediant to my online "Protector" worked dilligently on finding myself an online "Master" etc. I felt like I was in a D's relationsihp because, at that time it was all I had and all I knew. Looking back at where I was, as I am now, I think it was kinda silly, and I am glad I am not there anymore. If someone would have said I was silly to my face at that point I would have been very defensive and/or hostile. I guess, just to answer the question, it just has to do with where the people are in their lives, if they feel it is a "real, committed" relationship even if only online, then to them, it is.

I think talking about their online experiences when seeking real life opportunities, is just a way of letting their partners know what they think they like, or what they can at least wrap their minds around at that time. It is a helpful tool, as we know in real time, somethings are much better sounding in theory than they are in real life, but it gives a clue as to how open minded the person is.

thank you for reading this, have a great day,

pixie

_____________________________

**please note that I realize that I am just as full of crap as everybody else, feel free to remind me anytime**

If you understand it.......you've missed the point.


[image]http://img33.exs.cx/img33/2424/pixieunleashed-2.jpg[/image]

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 11:49:17 AM   
Tigresss


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Are you saying that physical contact is required for the relationship to be "real"?


First I want to thank each of you for taking the time to reply. All of you have provided some good food for thought.

Leonidas,
The word 'real' was used in a question not a statement.

Thanks Again,
Tigress

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 12:22:01 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

About 4 years ago, I did the online only thing, I was fortunate to bring myself real time in a matter of months, however, during that time, I felt it was the biggest thing that ever happened to me. I would run home to the computer every day, be obediant to my online "Protector" worked dilligently on finding myself an online "Master" etc. I felt like I was in a D's relationsihp because, at that time it was all I had and all I knew


That is exactly my experience too. I was introduced to bdsm online and trained online for 2 years before taking it to r/l. I researched it extensively. It's how i learned what i liked and disliked. It brought to life a whole side of me i knew nothing about. I also think a lot of online relationships develop when a married person is afraid to tell their vanilla spouse about their newly discovered self.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to pixieunleashed)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 3:29:29 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
....writing her second post with a little more bravado... *grins*

Hoping it is OK to air this thought about the online / realtime BDSM discussion ~ could online D/s or a cyber relationship be consider yet another fetish in this wonderful and diverse Lifestyle? Just a simple thought...

Peace and Respect


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 3:37:42 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		While I would hardly equate online training with real time interaction, by mentioning that one is familiar with 'online D/s' they are at (in my mind) making the statement that they at least know what BDSM entails, has a grasp of the intellectual expectations and possibly the emotional risks associated to a degree that a 'vanilla' person might/would not have.

I suppose it's like playing war video games for eight years (from 10 to 18) and then joining the Marines. You know a lot of the terms, some of the strategies, and a vague idea of what you are getting yourself into, but once you do - it's a whole new ballgame.

Stephan

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"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 3:40:26 PM   
ScorpioMaster


Posts: 146
Joined: 3/30/2004
Status: offline 		Considering I was into bondage long before Al Gore came up with it. I would say we use the net to explore that side of our selves we never realize it was part of us. I was able to branch out into the net to discover the world of BDSM by going to my first chat room once I was able to get on line. In that chat room I found out there was such things as local munches I could attend and met like mined individuals. I have only been in the local community since 1999 but from those who was around before munches and all they had was meet N greet. So online would be a way to explore that side of ourselves safely. The one down side to that is the fantasy is wilder than the real world we created in a channel. I would say for some the internet is a starting point.

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 4:15:56 PM   
pixieunleashed


Posts: 105
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		Angel,

I would say yes, I know a lot of people that get trapped into the fantasy realm of cyber relationships BDSM or vanilla, and it seems to be a new thing all on it's own.

thank you for reading this, have a great day,

pixie

_____________________________

**please note that I realize that I am just as full of crap as everybody else, feel free to remind me anytime**

If you understand it.......you've missed the point.


[image]http://img33.exs.cx/img33/2424/pixieunleashed-2.jpg[/image]

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 5:01:10 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I would say we use the net to explore that side of our selves we never realize it was part of us. I was able to branch out into the net to discover the world of BDSM by going to my first chat room once I was able to get on line. … I would say for some the internet is a starting point. - ScorpioMaster


I agree. I was doing "BDSM type stuff" since I was 18 and just thinking I was one twisted sister until I discovered the irc.bondage.com. I went it and stayed about 60 seconds then clicked that little X. I was scared senseless. Freaks like me, by the dozen. The next day I entered the channel again. “Identify as sub or Dom they said”. I clicked the X again. Then I googled sub and Dom. Then I went back. “Dom” I said. They thought I was a guy. Then “Domme” I was told, then called a poser. I clicked the X again. The next day changed my nick and went in as sub. I was virtually gagged and whipped within 10 minutes. I found it all so very surreal. That was 4 years ago. Things have changed!

quote:

1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present? - Tigresss


I tried the online stuff. I can’t do it anymore. But it is not because of the closeness factor. In fact, I think people can get very close online. Everything essentially happens in the minds and then sends messages to the rest of the body. Though I realised it wasn’t for me (and I’m not so sure it’s a right of passage neither but perhaps as ScorpioMaster said, a starting point for some), I find it all completely legitimate.

quote:

2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life? - Tigresss


I consider participating to these forums as adding to my D/s or BDSM experience and it is all happening online. Though I’m not playing with anyone, I’m learning a whole lot, sharing my views, hearing others, getting feedback, etc. I think all experiences are valuable. Though I would like to note, I would not want someone to lump online & real time all together. There is a difference especially in the Bondage as well as S&M part.

- LadyAngelika

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 7/15/2004 5:02:51 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to ScorpioMaster)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 7:18:11 PM   
Tigresss


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		Hello Everyone,

I appreciate each of your contributions to this thread. Your perspectives have helped me think about a few things in ways that never occurred to me before and to me that is what these forums are all about, sharing thought provoking perspectives.

I totally see the value in participating in these types of forums and I do agree that we all had to start somewhere and that the internet is a great resource for people to explore and to seek knowledge. I also believe that many people do fall madly and passionately in love without ever meeting face to face although I cannot say I have ever experienced that thus far. I also cannot say that I personally know anyone that has remained in an online only relationship for an extended period of time but I am sure that all things are possible if that is what the person decides makes them happy. What I still am unable to grasp is how seeking knowledge and exploring on the internet or in online relationships translates in to actual experience. I personally separate the pursuit of knowledge in this arena from actual experience much like when a person fills out a job application, there is a section that asks you for your experience and another section that asks you about your education. I have decided that since I personally take this very literal stance on the meaning of experience from now on I will simply no longer ask someone 'Do you have any experience in ...' instead I will modify my approach and ask 'Do you have any real life practical experience in ...' I find needing to make this distinction to get the answer I am really looking for odd but that is what I get for engaging in personal ads on the internet. Again I thank you for sharing your perspectives because I seriously was prepared to write off anyone that referred to their online experience.

Tigress

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Online D/s - 7/15/2004 9:14:36 PM   
angelthighhighs


Posts: 104
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline 		i've always been told that D/s is the emotional, the spirital side of this lifestyle. online...its quite possible to develop this. people tend to open up more and to devl into each other since about all they have is the written word or perhaps phone. a relationship that is deep and a form of love can indeed happen. BDSM on the other hand is the physical side...that of course you can't have online, cyber spanks just don't do it, and damn flogger always gets caught in the hard drive. rolls eyes.

there are many that perhaps thru disability or circumstances can not have real life. or, perhaps they're curious but afraid to take that first step. perhaps they feel "safer" trying D/s online first...who knows..

i've had both but once you have real life i think its very hard to go back to just online...at least for me it is/was...

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 1:24:45 AM   
MzBerlin


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss



1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?

Hey, Tigress.
I like your kitty.... . I can only give you my personal reasons for this, as it is all I have. I think that you are asking a really valid question. Recently, myself and a certain someone who will go unnamed, We'll call im TW, have been in a relationship of sorts over the internet. It is completely illogical, but it is a matter of the heart. Forgive me for being so mushy, but that's really what it boils down to. I don't think that the D/s was the deciding factor in our initial connection, but it has certainly provided a structure that we both crave. For both of us, we want a certain goal, or 'structured relationship.' Because of this I think that I feel more secure and open within our conversations. When TW and I first started talking it was casual and not usually about our *little* kink, although we discussed that in a casual way, also. It just wasn't an issue. Anyhoo- I THINK my point is this- because it just happens. Sometimes people mis-represent who they really are and that is the real issue, it's not the way they begin "dating" or persuing the relationship in the first place.

quote:

2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life?
quote:



I think that I can answer this one with a bit more certainty. People refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience because it is really and truly the base they are jumping off from. It's the beginning part of the relationship, whether it's on line or not. TW and I have a RL relationship that just also happens to be long distance. The fact that we've never met, and haven't actually contracted any relationship (we like paperwork. HeeHee) doesn't negate that I don't have RL feelings for the RL man that I know. I'm sure the adjustment will be slippery when I do meet TW in person, which will be soon. We'll probably both feel nervous because that physical proximity hasn't been there, but at this point it feels secondary to my emotions.

I hope that I have given you some insight and not made anyone throw up with my mushiness. It's at the center of the question. IMNSHO.

As Always-
Berlin

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 5:04:31 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss



I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?





Tigresss:

You've got some wonderful responses regarding the rest of your questions. I'd like to address this particular part of the first question because, for me, it's an important issue.

I have long said that somehow over the years our contemporary society has come to believe that love is an emotion. Perhaps with the advent of self help, trying to bring men out emotionally, dealing with repressed emotions, etc., we have (as a society) come to think of the emotion as one of the most important aspects in a relationship.

I disagree vehemently. Perhaps I am too familiar with the endocrine system and the ability to manipulate emotions through the manipulation of physical and psychological systems; but to me emotion is predominantly a biochemical response to either physical manipulations (comparable to someone experiencing 'subspace' from a flogging) or due to psychological stimulus (imagine someone saying something that is a trigger for you and having a rush of anger from it).

It seems that most people I've spoken to refer to 'love' as a noun, a thing. For me that makes no sense. For me, love is a verb. It must be in action, it must be in giving and receiving that we experience love or it is simply emotional response.

I'm not saying the emotion is an invalid part of the love dynamic, I'm saying that emotion is a manipulable and changing thing and therefore not a good enough reason for me to base life choices on (neither my emotion nor the emotion of someone else). Someone who will keep their commitments after the emotion has changed, or waned, is someone I can respect and believe in; but the keeping of those commitments, to me, is love in ACTION (verb).

Emotions change and can be made to change. Commitments and the keeping of them are choice and therefore have much more value to me.

To bring this notion back around, when people fall in love online are they not simply caught up in their emotions of the moment? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing...in fact for many it's a very powerful thing. I'm also not saying that someone whose commitments made online are invalid because many people make and keep commitments to online relationships to one degree or another (that's what makes them valid for me). How many people do we all know who have 'fallen in love' online, with the depth of emotion they have rarely experienced before, only to find later that the person they fell in love with doesn't even really exist other than in their own mind and belief?

Emotions are wonderful, powerful things, but for me they are a poor foundation for making personal life choices. It's a very small (and changing) part of the total package.

Love in action, as a verb, is what I value.

ymmv

< Message edited by MizSuz -- 7/16/2004 5:07:16 AM >

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 7:04:07 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss

First I want to say this is not a flame post. I fully understand that some think that engaging in fantasy online is their only option and so be it. I would love to hear perspectives on:

1. Why do people translate having feelings for someone they only have non-physical contact with as being in a committed D/s relationship that is just as real as people that are in full daily contact D/s relationships? I do not understand how relationships have become solely dependant on feelings being present?

2. Why do people refer to their D/s or BDSM online experience when they are seeking to enter real life?

Tigress



To answer the first question: Because online relationships are not physical...people tend to develop more emotional and psychological ties to their partner. Those feeling are real and they are "committed" because of those feelings. Problem with all of this: Lack of honesty, unrealistic expectations, no verification of trust, etc.

You see the posts on here that describe relationships gone horribly wrong? More often than not, they were online relationships...OR online relationships that met r/t for the first time. And what happens when this occurs? a cry is made by the wounded...the support group rallies and decrys that the dominant in this scenario was abusive....or not a "real" dominant. (Hasn't happened to me yet...thank gawd...)

Why did this all happen? Did the submissive have clear limits? Ohhhh...she was a self declared slave with no limits at all. Got it. Were safecalls set up? Oh...a safecall was set up with someone who lives 500 miles away. He whipped you? Didn't you two talk about whipping in your online scenes? you did? hurts a little more than you thought, huh?

I dont have a problem with online relationships...but damn. Just be realistic about what you are doing, the experience you have, and what you are willing to do. Saves a lot of people...a lot of trouble.

(Oh...if I sound cranky...I just quit smoking. You smokers out there... come near me, and I will tear your lungs out..and smoke the nicoteine residue)

smiles sweetly...have a nice day!

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 9:00:19 AM   
Tigresss


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the new posts, I am all about reading any perspectives I can get on this subject and just about any subject. Since I am only an authority on my own perspectives and those are subject to change without warning, I do enjoy hearing what others have to say.

I completely believe that people not only can but do develop feelings for people they interact with online on a regular basis. I can say that I have developed a fondness for certain people that I have interacted with on the net in a friendship manner. I just happen to be one of those people that no matter how great I think you are on the net, until we meet face to face and I am able to connect all the dots 'you are just someone cool that I enjoy chatting with on the net' I am also one of those people that if I cannot put my hands on you and look you dead in the eye, then your desire to serve me in any way shape or manner doesn't hold water with me. That is just me.

I also think there is a lot of bastardization and over-romanticized notions and even over-dramatization of D/s and M/s relationships on the internet. I think that is one of the reasons why you hear so many stories about subbie wubbies that finally meet their knight/godess in shinning armor and then reality sets in which then translates to abuse to them becuase the pretty picture that they have so loving painted in their heads now comes with the nasty sting of a whip and those words that once sounded so 'romantically commanding' in their heads no longer have the same ring and actually sound like an order instead of a 'honey, sweetie pie, sugar lump would you please make chicken for dinner tonight my precious angel'. Now don't get me wrong there are predators lurking the internet just waiting to find their next victim but I do not believe that is the reality every time you hear one of these horror stories. I also have issues with all the lack of personal responsibility I see here on the internet but shit happiness that is an actual reflection of how many people behave in real life so it is all good. I digress.

I think the internet is a great place to read about and discuss things people are interested in with other like minded people and if your kink is to jack yourself off emotionally, mentally or physically engaging in cyber sex and cyber kink then hey I think that is cool too (do what makes you happy) however, when you make the decision to enter real life, leave the cyber where it belongs... on the internet. Just my perspective.... as someone has on their signature (that I am now so shamlessly using) I could be wrong.


I would really love to hear what the pros and con's are of 'online training' beyond emotional attachments to people?

P.s. Good luck on the quitting smoking I haven't decided to muster up enough balls to quit yet so I am glad to see you have.

Tigress

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 10:37:05 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

I would really love to hear what the pros and con's are of 'online training'


I was trained online for 2 years. Before i met my online Dom i knew nothing of this lifestyle. He showed me what it is all about and what to expect when i did take it to r/l. He gave me his rules and when i didn't follow them i was punished in r/l (like not being allowed to cum when i mastrubate) rather than imaginary spankings. He also had me do things in r/l not just fantasy, like wearing my plug and dildo in public places. We often read online bdsm stories together and discussed them as part of the learning process. It only works if you are honest with each other and actually do what you are asked to do (or not do). When we got webcams He would ask me to do things on cam. To me it was all very real. I would say online can be a very rewarding and educational experience, especially to newbies exploring this lifestyle. A lot depends on the parties involved. My Dom was very patient, very explicit and had a great imagination when he set up fantasy scenes. Hope that helps.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 6:01:03 PM   
Tigresss


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Hoping it is OK to air this thought about the online / realtime BDSM discussion ~ could online D/s or a cyber relationship be consider yet another fetish in this wonderful and diverse Lifestyle? Just a simple thought...



dark~angel,

Would you mind if I posted your above quote in another community that I belong to?

Tigress

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Online D/s - 7/16/2004 6:23:56 PM   
MzBerlin


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigresss

Since I am only an authority on my own perspectives and those are subject to change without warning, I do enjoy hearing what others have to say.



Tigresss- I totally got you on that one.
As Always
Berlin

(in reply to Tigresss)
Profile   Post #: 20
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