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Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 1:33:09 PM   
celticlord2112


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The Democratic party has other problems come November besides who's at the top of the presidential ticket.  How can they as a party claim competency to govern a nation when they can't even govern themselves.

I would feel more sanguine about a Clinton or Obama Presidency if Howard Dean or other leading Democrats would actually step into this self-inflicted mess and lead.


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 2:36:45 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 2:42:41 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		actualy with Fla. and Michigan.. mind you I live in Fla... my Rev. is a voted in Delegate ( if we get them!) that *I* presonaly helped with his campaign....

I think it is fair that we have to reach some kind of conculison our selves. Dean can not just say Ok. it is (XYZ)

he said
``We can't have half the Democratic Party walk out thinking there was some deal cooked, and that's why their person didn't win,'' Dean said today on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' program. ``The loser in the race has to feel that they've been treated fairly.''

I think that is smart.... everything has to be transparent. No back room.. ok.. we are gonna fuck so and so out of deligates by just doing XYZ.

The people have to have a say.. the canidates have to have a say.. that is democracy. They sure as hell do not want the voters of Fla and Mich. to feel disenfranchised. *We* sure as hell didnt decide to go early. And the DNC didnt decide for us either. The wankers in between did. *sighs* With out thinking the DNC would just basicaly toss out the results. Rules are there for reasons.

with the mass media hate mongering Hillary it is only going to make the Michigan/Florida contest  more of a news item.. and someone is gonna say she is being a bitch and unfair. if Obama was lagging and he had won those states.. they would be humming a different tune.

I think all votes should count. Mine is in there somewhere damn it.

Gwyn

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 3:00:34 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.


This is Presidential politics.  It's AMERICAN business.


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 3:06:48 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

``We can't have half the Democratic Party walk out thinking there was some deal cooked, and that's why their person didn't win,'' Dean said today on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' program. ``The loser in the race has to feel that they've been treated fairly.''


Gwyn, as a Floridian, can you foresee an outcome that won't seem "cooked"?

If the current delegates are seated, Obama's people can cry foul, because the DNC asked him not to campaign in those states.

If a do over is conducts and Obama wins, Hillary's people can cry foul, because she won on the first pass.

If the delegates are just split 50-50, Hillary can again cry foul, for the same reason.  Obama might also cry foul, because it doesn't get him over the top in pledged delegates.

If the delegates are left unseated, Hillary as well as the voters can cry foul.

I am curious how the Democrats will finesse this so as not to look like a bunch of political hacks.


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 3:49:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.


This is Presidential politics.  It's AMERICAN business.


Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. Of course I could start posting the ballot access rules the GOP has that prevent candidates they don't approve of from ever even getting on the ballot. Why did Colbert only try and get on the democratic ballot in SC? I already know the answer but its really none of my business so I have stayed out of it. Just as this matter is none of your business.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 3:57:06 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.


This is Presidential politics.  It's AMERICAN business.


Nope. This is democratic party business. We make the rules. We cast the votes. You're welcome to poke your nose in it as soon as I'm welcome to start poking around in how the various state GOP's change their primary rules every 4 years in an attempt to favor their prefered candidate. Of course I could start posting the ballot access rules the GOP has that prevent candidates they don't approve of from ever even getting on the ballot. Why did Colbert only try and get on the democratic ballot in SC? I already know the answer but its really none of my business so I have stayed out of it. Just as this matter is none of your business.


This is Presidential politics.  It's AMERICAN business.

Feel free to poke your nose wherever you like. 

The beauty of electoral politics.  Permission is not required. 


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 10:24:11 PM   
trueshadow


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Status: offline 		Hillary and Obama aren't the answer.  They should step aside and allow Gore to run again.  He'd win hands down.  He lost in 2000, but he'd have little trouble this time.  And he's worlds better than Hillary or Obama.  He actually is a serious guy with a head on his shoulders.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/10/2008 10:27:42 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.


Last I checked it is the Dems who screwed up the system. No one would be saying anything if the Dems would have followed the GOP's punishment for Florida and Michigan....take away half their delegates. By stripping them all, the DNC painted themselves into a corner.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 12:57:27 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'd be more sanguine if people who aren't democrats would butt out of party business.


Last I checked it is the Dems who screwed up the system. No one would be saying anything if the Dems would have followed the GOP's punishment for Florida and Michigan....take away half their delegates. By stripping them all, the DNC painted themselves into a corner.

Wrong.

The Dems would have had to change the rules as they stood to allow that. The fact is the state legislatures in both states moved the primaries in the face of the agreement between the national parties that only 4 states would be allowed to move their primaries into January. The rules for how they would be punished were known in both cases and both legislatures went ahead and did it. Now they don't like the idea of living with the outcome of their stupidity.

Since neither state has had an actual valid primary yet I think the state's should pay for a valid primary with a date before June 1. I'm sure with the supreme concern that all Florida votes be counted known to be a bedrock principle of the GOP they will want to hold a valid primary as well rather than making Florida and Michigan GOP voters only count as 1/2 a person.

Of course since common sense has flown out the window, 3/4 of the legislatures involved are GOP run after all, it appears that FL and MI will hold some sort of state Democratic party financed mail in Democratic primary and the GOP will go ahead and disenfranchise half the GOP voters in each state which I'm looking forward to with great anticipation.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 1:09:52 AM   
Gwynvyd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

``We can't have half the Democratic Party walk out thinking there was some deal cooked, and that's why their person didn't win,'' Dean said today on CBS's ``Face the Nation'' program. ``The loser in the race has to feel that they've been treated fairly.''


Gwyn, as a Floridian, can you foresee an outcome that won't seem "cooked"?

If the current delegates are seated, Obama's people can cry foul, because the DNC asked him not to campaign in those states.

If a do over is conducts and Obama wins, Hillary's people can cry foul, because she won on the first pass.

If the delegates are just split 50-50, Hillary can again cry foul, for the same reason.  Obama might also cry foul, because it doesn't get him over the top in pledged delegates.

If the delegates are left unseated, Hillary as well as the voters can cry foul.

I am curious how the Democrats will finesse this so as not to look like a bunch of political hacks.



regardless of how the slanted media has played it..

Hilary did not campaign in Florida. She simply came here the day of for the results. Both were on the balots here. Personaly I am more then happy with the deligates as is sticking for Florida. ( that should be fair)
Obama was not even on the ballots in Mich. However there was a write in section.. of which many used. He still did not get the majority. Being as that his name was not even on the balot I think a mailed out "do over" should be done. ( just to be fair) Funded 1/4th by the DNC, 1/4th by the State elections, 1/4th by Clinton, 1/4th by Obama. A mail in system would be less expenisve then the 2 Mil. it would take for a in person do over.

No body is going to be 100% happy in this.. you simply can not please every body all the time. esp in this cluster fuck of an election. (Dubbya set the bar on that)


But I think these solutions would be the most fair.

Just my two ducats.

Gwyn

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 1:14:27 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		all in all the GOP discounting 1/2 off on Fla and Mi doesnt matter the odds were against any one but McCain.

The close race in the DNC is the only reason why any one nationaly even gives a shit about us folks in Fla. or Mi.

Gwyn

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Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 1:15:48 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		We already picked our gay Domken.  Mcain won Florida hands down.  And came in second by a long shot in Michigam, and Romney dropped out.  We don't have a battle.

However we are seeing that the Democrat party can't even nominate a person, much less run the country.  Yeah "Change"!!

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 2:43:41 AM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		For the Republicans...it's meaningless. McCain will get the nomination anyway since the GOP's system has far less superdelegates. McCain won Florida and lost Michigan. The GOP also has several states that are "winner take all." Meaning the candidate that comes in 1st place wins all the delegates. Florida is one of those states. By allowing Florida and Michigan to fully count, it would only increase McCain's delegate total.

Plus McCain has said he will allow all those delegates to be seated at the convention anyway.

This isn't a problem on the GOP side....so why should the GOP have to pay a dime because the Dems can't compromise? The GOP rules are actually built to help prevent the type of tug of war that is occuring on the Democrats side. Less superdelegates....winner take all states....punishments dont disenfranchise completely....etc...

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 3/11/2008 2:48:25 AM >

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 4:56:41 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		CL is right -it is all of our business. Both states flouted  the law. other states wanted to move up the primary too, but did  not. So blame state governance.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 4:57:22 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

How can they as a party claim competency to govern a nation when they can't even govern themselves.



Parties aren't supposed to govern.  They are supposed to choose and promote candidates.  The process doesn't have to be clean and precise. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I would feel more sanguine about a Clinton or Obama Presidency if Howard Dean or other leading Democrats would actually step into this self-inflicted mess and lead.



Isn't it odd how folks see things differently.  I would feel more sanguine about a McCain presidency if the RNC hadn't stepped in to choose the candidate.

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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 5:11:14 AM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

CL is right -it is all of our business. Both states flouted  the law. other states wanted to move up the primary too, but did  not. So blame state governance.



There is no law being broken here.  The inner workings of DNC (as well as RNC) rules and how they govern their primary elections impacts how candidates are selected, and thus is of interest to everyone, but to suggest that either state flouted or contravened any law is an egregious misstatement of fact.


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 5:19:26 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Parties aren't supposed to govern.  They are supposed to choose and promote candidates.  The process doesn't have to be clean and precise.

Party platforms and affiliations play a central role in our nation's political processes.  The DNC may not be a de facto governing body, but it is a significant and potent voice--and, it seems, a most undisciplined and chaotic one.

quote:


Isn't it odd how folks see things differently.  I would feel more sanguine about a McCain presidency if the RNC hadn't stepped in to choose the candidate.


And just how did the RNC do that? 

I don't see either party's national leadership actively choosing the candidate for their party--and that is a definite plus for the process.  However, it fascinates me that the Democrats have created a situation where their leadership apparently will be compelled to do just that via the superdelegates.


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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 5:56:31 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

CL is right -it is all of our business. Both states flouted  the law. other states wanted to move up the primary too, but did  not. So blame state governance.



There is no law being broken here.  The inner workings of DNC (as well as RNC) rules and how they govern their primary elections impacts how candidates are selected, and thus is of interest to everyone, but to suggest that either state flouted or contravened any law is an egregious misstatement of fact.



If every vote counts- then who in the right mind would schedule the primary on a date which does NOT count?  Whoever scheduled the primary- blunderred. Pennsylvania asked to move up its primary. Was told no.  And did not.  The rules are the rules.



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RE: Dean Says Florida, Michigan Must Solve Primary Issue - 3/11/2008 6:09:02 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If every vote counts- then who in the right mind would schedule the primary on a date which does NOT count? Whoever scheduled the primary- blunderred. Pennsylvania asked to move up its primary. Was told no. And did not. The rules are the rules.


The "whoever" in each case is the state legislature.  Did they act prudently in changing their primary dates?  With respect to the DNC, apparently they did not.

However, the DNC's response to the imprudent actions of the Florida and Michigan legislatures effectively denies the citizens of both states a voice in selecting the Democratic nominee for President.  Is that a proportionate and prudent response to an action over which the voters in each state had little if any practical control?

I'm sure voters in Florida will be most reassured by your rhetoric of "the rules are the rules."


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