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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 12:57:44 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

*scratches head*

no .. that offers me evidence that humanity is able to particpate in acts of great evil

it might even offer me evidence that God does not micromanage the everday actions of people to whom He gave free will

it in no way stands as evidence that He does not exist


I'll let that point go for a more expedient route, then.

Say that there's a man who believes, for certain, that there's a cow living in his basement.  He can't go down there because he's too old, and he lives alone.  He has no evidence, nor does he have a reason to believe a cow somehow got down there, but he's sure it's there.  Still, since he's never been down there, he also has no evidence against it.

Is this man crazy?

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 12:59:11 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		I have no evidence that I am in love

and yet

I am


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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:00:43 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		If love is an emotion, and you can feel emotions.. how do you not have evidence for it?

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:02:01 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		The cow thing?  If he lives on a farm, there's a much better chance there's a cow there.  That's the point; that there's a very good chance that whomever set up this bubble we call a Universe had direct interest in populating it with free thinking creatures of some sort.  If that had not been the intention of this/these beings, then it stands to reason we wouldn't exist today to have this discussion.

As for Fundamentalism, I think we're on the same page.  Communism was a group of ideas and beliefs that flew in the face of reality (that people will work harder, if they are guaranteed a state paid for three squares and a cot.)  And, in reality, it flopped.  Hard core.  Communism also had a vested interest in reducing religion; the belief being that one couldn't give their heart both to Jesus and the Party.

Stephan


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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:03:22 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If love is an emotion, and you can feel emotions.. how do you not have evidence for it?


If it could be proven and evidenced, I'm sure the Department of Defense would have found a way to turn it into a Weapon of Mass Destruction by now

Stephan


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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:03:33 PM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		because i dont, I cant prove to myself what I feel is love, i cant quantify it, and compare it to other people, it just is

the whole if you cant prove it its not there thoery is redundent

it is the theory of relativity, the theory of gravity, not the fact, science changes daily, its not conclusive proof, people feel there is a god, people get emotions in church, and thats less valid why? because you say so? Well ill just do a statistical analysis of everyone who has felt god, everyone who has sensed energy everyone who feels that their religion helps them then its proof right?

< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/11/2008 1:04:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:06:17 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		We have so much evidence that, even in the lack of a creator, life would've still arisen.  Hell, if you're up for it, I can make one hell of an argument for life being a natural, inevitable happening.

Still, even if we didn't know that.. isn't there a difference between thinking that a cow might be there and that there is a cow?  While even I acknowledge it's possible, I see no reason why it must be.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:07:40 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin


Maybe I am just more pessimistic, I just notice that when a Muslim does soemthing wrong (even outside the realms of their religion, steal a car or whatever) Its pointed out that they are indeed a Muslim, same can be said of race to an extenet, you never hear a story prefixed with white christian, just in my experiance.

I come froma  very white area and there is a heck of a lot of stupid prejudice here because its seen as the 'other' or differant. May just be my experiance tho



I agree you dont hear the term white Christians, normally though the media says hoodies or larger louts and people know who they mean. Dont get me wrong, attitudes hear still have a long way to go. Yet there was very little backlash towards the Muslim communities after the London bombings.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:08:41 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I'm afraid that they've already matched up brain scans and measured hormones to roughly measure and qualify "love".  We're still physical bodies, and love's still a happening inside of us.  Sure, it's a really complex one (as we are very complex creatures with regards to what we consider to be complex), but it's certainly there.

I hate touching love to science, though.  I guess I like romanticism about at least one thing! :P

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:10:55 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Seriously CL... I know you don't have much time for any religions etc, but moving the thread off onto a 'religion vs it doesn't exist' is kind of childish.  You want a thread on the existance of a christian God?  Start a thread and let people go post there... but Lady Es  original topic wasn't trying to prove the non existance of a god as far as I could read it.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:10:56 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		How do you know what "love" is?  Do you experience the same emotion others do, or is it just similar enough to give the same name?  Aren't there many different definitions and types of love?

My point is that you feel something.  It's quite real- you experience it.  You call this experience "love".  So long as it persists, you have "love".  When it fails, it's colloquial to say that one has "fallen out of love".  It's not a realm for some metaphysical being, but a real, physical thing that's happening inside of your mind and body.

Honestly, I think it's a pretty beautiful thing, even when you do put it under a microscope a bit.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:10:57 PM   
softness


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Status: offline 		how is the cow more expedient ....?

I didn't ask for evidence to prove the cow is down there ... I asked for you to find evidence .. that the cow ISN'T

I am not asking you to believe in God, I haven't ever asked *anyone* to believe in God ... but what I am asking you is this. Do not insult me and tirade against me for believing in God .. when you can offer me no evidence that my belief is false.

Faith is called Faith .. because it is FAITH ..

If I had evidence, being a good student of Plato .. I would call it my KNOWLEDGE of God .. would I not?


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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:12:24 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		You see, I would say that man's crazy.  He believes in something that there's no reason to believe in, something that may very well be wrong.  To me, this is the essense of what it means to be crazy- to have a view of the world which deviates from objective reality.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:13:31 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		CL, what you're suggesting is counter intuitive.  What you're in fact saying, is that if I had a basement with the building blocks of life, and an infinity of time, sooner or later a cow would spring up. 

What I'm sayin', is that if I didn't have that basement, didn't have the mud, didn't have the oxygen, didn't have the hydrogen, didn't have any elements... at all.  Just space.  No life could spring out of such space. 

The 'rules' that allow our Universe to function clearly were established (from my perspective) in such a manner that life must exist.  I don't believe that to be accidental.  Take the concept of gravity out of the equation for example; we're left with an incalculable amount of mass, that has no pull towards each other.  A pile of hydrogen, perhaps, that will never become Helium, never become a star, never become solar systems, never become oxygen, or nitrogen, nickle, glucose, etc etc etc.

I believe life exists, because the conditions to permit life were set in place by a being or beings who wished for it to be so.  If those beings hadn't existed, to me, it's  not logical that we would exist.  They, too must have come from somewhere, and so forth, as part of a chain.  Frankly, I don't know enough about it; but I firmly believe my position to be equally valid as any person who claims 'God' doesn't exist.  Which still doesn't address the point of the validity and value of religion, whether or not God does exist.

I don't expect to convince you that God exists.  You're entitled to your opinion.  What you might be careful of, though, is making a statement like "anyone who believes in God must be insane to think so." 

Regards,

STephan


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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:13:58 PM   
softness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

How do you know what "FAITH" is?  Do you experience the same FAITH others do, or is it just similar enough to give the same name?  Aren't there many different definitions and types of FAITH ?

My point is that you feel something.  It's quite real- you experience it.  You call this experience "FAITH".  So long as it persists, you have "FAITH".  When it fails, it's colloquial to say that one has "fallen out of  FAITH".  It's not a realm for some metaphysical being, but a real, physical thing that's happening inside of your mind and body.

Honestly, I think it's a pretty beautiful thing, even when you do put it under a microscope a bit.


I just changed love for Faith ... and this post still made perfect sense ... am I the only person that sees that?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:17:01 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Yes, you replaced "faith" with "love".  Your faith exists- just as love does.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:23:28 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Oh, but I'm not implying the cow would necessarily exist- only life would.  The fact we're human is, as far as I can tell, rather arbitrary to our reality (not that our reality may've had sentient cows in this exact point in time and space, but that we're as arbitrary as our instance of reality).

What I'm saying is that life must exist.  After all, what is life other than patterns which reproduce themselves?  If patterns keep happening, aren't patterns which repeat themselves bound to happen?  Wouldn't these patterns be "life"?  Wouldn't they come to take in information about the world around them to help them repeat, or otherwise parish and new patterns would later arise, until one can distinguish?  Isn't this simply an extension of evolution?

Sorry if I seem a bit leading.  It's a long thought process, but one I cherish.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 1:58:30 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		I get you, CL, but the issue for me is that life came from somewhere.  That this sandbox we call reality seems a little too well designed and constructed for it to have just fallen from the sky.  I figure someone, somewhere, for whatever reason, put this darned thing together hammer and nails style, and waited for the kids to show up.  It doesn't make sense to me that the sandbox just sprang out from the ground.

So it's not a question of assuming there's a cow in my basement without knowing.  It's knowing that somehow, we ended up here.  Either someone or something put the Universe in motion, or it just sprang out of nothing.  I'm more inclined to believe the former.

Stephan


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 2:01:42 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I'd argue against it being "well designed", though.  I mean, whatever the design, there was going to be life.  This design happens to suit us, but to say that this design is therefore special is to assume that we're special; I don't see why this assumption should be made.

Exactly "why" reality exists, I'll admit, I don't know.  But if a God made it, then what made the God?  Why should we assume that a God can spontenously exist, but not random elements of nature?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/11/2008 2:13:16 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		No assertion that God spontaneously sprang into being is required; God, as we understand it, could have been brought into existence by something greater (or older.) 

I'm not Christian.  I don't hold to any canonical beliefs about God being the Alpha and the Omega.  God, to me, represents the force that established our universe.  I don't assume he's interested in us personally or collectively, though I suspect he does for his own reasons.

I don't believe that the universe sprang into being.  Life, to me, isn't a given.  Too many things in our world, in our universe, seem too perfectly balanced to simply be 'natural.'

Stephan


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Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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