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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 4:56:30 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann Quite

I assume God exists. You assume God does not exist. Neither can be proven, thus we are only left with the value of... assertions. Assumptions. Your belief is no more or less valid than my belief, regardless of what our guts tell us.

Quite

Not at all! I never assumed God doesn't exist. I'm saying it's silly to believe God exists. I'm not saying God doesn't exist.

In short, I'm saying religion is silly.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 4:57:44 PM

CuriousLord

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Okay, I have to get to work, but I'll likely be able to catch up on this later.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 5:02:58 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann Quite

I assume God exists. You assume God does not exist. Neither can be proven, thus we are only left with the value of... assertions. Assumptions. Your belief is no more or less valid than my belief, regardless of what our guts tell us.

Quite

Then you have us, agnostics, left in the way side of the argument because we're too mild... We're not certain... we question and probe... and some of us even argue that while some people may have individual certainty of God, we personally don't know... It's tough on the ass, sitting on the fence.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 5:06:25 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I was pointing out how the specific Christian God was silly in that part.

Are you referring to the last god of the jews, the Lord is my Shepherd god?

He did perform the third known creation ritual - and an ugly business it was, as usual - thus he might be called a creator, but he was not an incarnation of the Creator for the Creator is another god entirely.

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/12/2008 5:07:56 PM >

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 6:09:31 PM

CuriousLord

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I don't think I know the mythology you're referring to.

Is it derived from the Christian system?

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Post #: 145

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 6:25:10 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
I don't think I know the mythology you're referring to.

That is because you have two eyes, whereas I have one, being a supergenius.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Is it derived from the Christian system?

I just googled it. It is in the first line of psalm 23: "[1]The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want".

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/12/2008 6:26:09 PM >

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 6:47:53 PM

caitlyn

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Respectfully, the difficulty I see in this discussion, is the desire to prove religion and/or the existance of God, by your owe rules ... rules that do not include faith.

Faith, right or wrong, is organic to both religion and God. You cannot understand the latter, without at least some acceptance of the former.

To use a highly simple analogy ... you seem to be very skilled at mathematics. If I were to ask you to prove math to me, but would not accept numbers, or symbols, even in a hypothetical sense ... I could say that math is silly because you were not able to prove it to me by the methods I outlined ... and you would think I was some sort of fool for asking you to explain math without using things organic to that subject.

We are not far off that level of simplicity here. You find religion and God silly, because it cannot be proven to you by the methods you outlined ... methods that do no include faith. Some perhaps find your position foolish, because you are looking to have these things proven to you, without using things organic to that subject.

There will not be resolution here ... only silence. A silence that is desthunderous.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 8:39:18 PM

MasterWilliam55

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softness, you are clearly an educated and bright person. Even though I'm an atheist, I'm impressed with the depth of your steady faith that God exisits and the way you and I might add some others have stood up to the rants of some others. I'm not posting to attack your faith, but to comment on something you wrote, and to remind others that faith requires no evidence. It wouldn't be faith if it did.

Your statement " Can you do the same for why there is NOT a God?" Is not a reason for why there might be one. It's the academic in me...sorry. One of the basic tenants of logic states "You cannot disprove a negative". Simply stated this means that to Disprove something exisits or happened requires that there be evidence presented that it did or does and then someone can challange that evidence. If the grocery store over charges me and I challange them, a reciept has to be presented. I can then challange the contents of that reciept. I have no argument if there is no reciept (the evidence) to refute. I would be left with nothing other than my suspicion. They would be left with nothing but faith in their computor system, a faith they need to make their world work.

Faith cannot be challanged. Faith requires no reason or evidence. It would not be faith if it did. You have your faith and I'm left with only common sense regarding this isssue. The argument (it's not a debate where logic rules) will never find a resolution.

Your faith in God and my atheism will learn to co-exist. I believe, and this is my faith, that basically good people who respect each other, can make good things happen, regardless of their differences.

One caveat though; organized religion, however loose, has to go. Hummmm, well except for organized pagonism, complete with its sex rituals. I have faith in sex and passion. Ok Ok, I'll accept the odd sacrifice to the Pain God, ummm and the Sensual Priestess. There is of course a sacrifice to the God of Bondage (he lives in my neighborhood). I have to throw the odd virgin his way (may not be a virgin, but he doesn't care).

You have beautiful eyes softness. May you always see your path clearly.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 8:48:40 PM

MasterWilliam55

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Correction to first paragraph. (shit happens.)

I'm impressed with the depth of your steady faith that God exists and the way You, and some others, stood up to the rants against you. They were rants, not arguments.

(It's amazing what a couple of commas and a short clarification can accomplish. Sorry about that)

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Post #: 149

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 9:53:30 PM

CuriousLord

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I understand faith, caitlyn. It's an assumption; as you said, it's quite simple.

I do not agree with making the assumption. There's just no reason to make it. Honestly, I'm at a loss for understanding why this may be a concept we can't agree on readily.

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Post #: 150

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 10:12:12 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Your assertion is insulting at best. Because you believe your logic superior, doesn't make it so, nor my own logic invalid.

We may have divergent philosophical views here; that doesn't empower yours or mine to any greater degree. Failing to recognize this point, will only lead us to an impasse.

************************************************************

People will be happy to examine and poke holes in your logic. To encourage that, I urge you, as a friend, to choose how you present your ideas and logic so that it doesn't anger the very people who's perspectives you are inviting.

Stephan

Trouble is, while there are different types of logic, that doesn't mean that calling illogic a form of logic makes them equal...
Logic is a tool, if it can't do the work, it is no good.
If it is homemade, and cannot meet the basic components of logic, it is worthless for basing reliable deductions on. (Which is why we don't have airlines run entirely by prayer, or computer controls programmed from pesher.)

And tailoring logic to win popularity contests is a non-starter...
If people get insulted when their doctor tells them they are fat, that doesn't mean that he should tell them about this wonderful new logic that says they are actually skinny.

So assertions based on illogic that wouldn't get a plane off the ground have the burden of proof, not the other way around.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/12/2008 10:14:01 PM

luckydog1

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The logic is always the same, it is the premises that are different, producing different outcomes.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 4:04:19 AM

meatcleaver

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General point.

If someone said they had been created by the left toe of a footless ape called bungobongo and that he internvenes in his life to make it better, even though he lives in a gutter and exists by drinking piss but bungobongo really loves him, who is to say that that someone is nuts because you wouldn't call someone who believes in god nuts because it is based on the same logic as the belief in god.

Would you?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/13/2008 4:05:10 AM >

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 5:14:47 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The logic is always the same, it is the premises that are different, producing different outcomes.

Apparently in your world, blind faith and illogic are the same as logic, and can be used to bolster any premise...not in mine.

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Post #: 154

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 7:41:03 AM

Stephann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I understand faith, caitlyn. It's an assumption; as you said, it's quite simple.

I do not agree with making the assumption. There's just no reason to make it. Honestly, I'm at a loss for understanding why this may be a concept we can't agree on readily.

Really, really well said caitlyn.

CL, and Alumbro,

Much greater men than I have tussled with the concept of God. I have no more skill of painting the Mona Lisa or proving the Theory of Relativity than the great men who did so before me. Albert Einstein said "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God." I am not spiritual because Einstein is spirtual. I am spirtual, because it makes sense to me. If men who clearly possess the capacity for logic greater than any individual who has commented on this subject here in the past few days may find comfort and purpose in religiou, I believe it would be arrogance bordering on hubris to pretend such religious assertions have no value.

Stephan

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 9:11:08 AM

MasterWilliam55

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Logic has to do with the principals that guide deductive reasoning. Many of your arguments however heartfelt or true, do not make sense, simply because of a lack of disipline in the structure of those arguments. You argue from emotion and subjectivity. If someone here wants to truly make a valid point, you may want to try some objective deductive reasoning.

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Post #: 156

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 4:11:13 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterWilliam55

Logic has to do with the principals that guide deductive reasoning. Many of your arguments however heartfelt or true, do not make sense, simply because of a lack of disipline in the structure of those arguments. You argue from emotion and subjectivity. If someone here wants to truly make a valid point, you may want to try some objective deductive reasoning.

Could you offer some specifics as to what 'arguments' don't make sense?
Why don't you provide some quotes, and let's examine them to see where they fail to conform to the principles that guide deductive reasoning.

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Post #: 157

RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 4:16:42 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I understand faith, caitlyn. It's an assumption; as you said, it's quite simple.

I do not agree with making the assumption. There's just no reason to make it. Honestly, I'm at a loss for understanding why this may be a concept we can't agree on readily.

Really, really well said caitlyn.

CL, and Alumbro,

Much greater men than I have tussled with the concept of God. I have no more skill of painting the Mona Lisa or proving the Theory of Relativity than the great men who did so before me. Albert Einstein said "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God." I am not spiritual because Einstein is spirtual. I am spirtual, because it makes sense to me. If men who clearly possess the capacity for logic greater than any individual who has commented on this subject here in the past few days may find comfort and purpose in religiou, I believe it would be arrogance bordering on hubris to pretend such religious assertions have no value.

Stephan

Which has nothing to do with what I said.

You proclaimed that the blind faith needed to accept spirituality, was an equally valid system of logic along with propositional, predicate, or syllogistic logic.
It may be equally powerful, or equally as functional, but it still isn't logic, it is the opposite.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 4:42:08 PM

MasterWilliam55

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Alumbrado, You seem like a smart guy. You know any discussion of this sort will go no where as a cyber discussion.

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RE: Religion and Religiosity - 3/13/2008 7:15:00 PM

sharainks

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I think the thing that raises hackles is the habit of calling other's beliefs silly. Its a little like telling someone that they are too stupid to decide for themselves what they believe in. I could really care less what others think of why I think or believe a certain way. They aren't living my life or making my choices. I'm not living their life or making their choices.

I'm a Christian. Its how I've decided that I want to live my life. If someone else chooses not to be a Christian-or to follow any faith at all that is up to them. It doesn't make either choice "silly." Its simply a matter or someone making choices for themselves.

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