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RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 12:24:13 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

I expect better from everybody. There is no excuse for such an amount of ignorance.


I find people who support strong central governement and the curbing of free speech ignorant, it is what killed my family.




I am sorry for your loss, but equating every strong, central government with the 3rd reich shows a lack of information.


3rd reich, Soviet Communism, Fasism and its ilk all started with Strong authoritarian governments and curbing of free speech.
It is the root and the beggining of systematic opression.
I cant wrap my head around how a person can be proud of that.





It is the USA that is starting the wars nowadays, torturing people and locking people up without trial and the patriotic act would not get through modern European parliaments and if it did, the European Court of Human Rights would probably rule against it.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:01:03 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

3rd reich, Soviet Communism, Fasism and its ilk all started with Strong authoritarian governments and curbing of free speech.
It is the root and the beggining of systematic opression.
I cant wrap my head around how a person can be proud of that.



First of all, would you please point out were I ever stated that I was proud of the 3rd Reich?

And if you think that the roots of the 3rd Reich lay in a strong authoritan government, you truly need to retake some history classes. The circumstances which made this monstrosity possible are much, much more complex.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Moloch)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:05:49 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Stützen Sie ihm nicht unter!

I am sorry, but some things can not be left without comment. ( It is "Unterstützen Sie ihn nicht" btw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Scheiß! Ich muss jetzt meiner französisch Wörterbuch finden. Fick mich.


Nearly perfect!


_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:13:01 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Stützen Sie ihm nicht unter!

I am sorry, but some things can not be left without comment. ( It is "Unterstützen Sie ihn nicht" btw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Scheiß! Ich muss jetzt meiner französisch Wörterbuch finden. Fick mich.


Nearly perfect!

I haven't used any German since München August 2003.

meines... neuter accusative. Oops!

Ja, ihn. Another oops. But unterstützen is a variable prefix verb, right? And, as it is being used in its basic meaning, rather than its figurative meaning, it should be separated, should it not? if I am wrong, be so kind as to explain to me why. I am always open to new knowledge (good Progressive that I am ).

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/14/2008 1:28:15 AM >

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:22:50 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Stützen Sie ihm nicht unter!

I am sorry, but some things can not be left without comment. ( It is "Unterstützen Sie ihn nicht" btw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Scheiß! Ich muss jetzt meiner französisch Wörterbuch finden. Fick mich.


Nearly perfect!

I haven't used any German since München August 2003.

meines... neuter accusative. Oops!


You are doing quite well, and yes, that was the mistake in the last one.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:29:09 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		calamity, I edited my last post. If you would...

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:39:59 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Stützen Sie ihm nicht unter!

I am sorry, but some things can not be left without comment. ( It is "Unterstützen Sie ihn nicht" btw)


Ja, ihn. Another oops. But unterstützen is a variable prefix verb, right? And, as it is being used in its basic meaning, rather than its figurative meaning, it should be separated, should it not? if I am wrong, be so kind as to explain to me why. I am always open to new knowledge (good Progressive that I am ).


Yes, I would.

Explain why "unterstützen" is never separated? Well, I would if there was a rational explanation. It is just one of that nice, quirky exceptions of the rule that German is full of.
Even if it is essentially made up from "unter" and "stützen", it has come to be a word on its own, no longer to be separated into its parts.

< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 3/14/2008 1:43:35 AM >

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:42:02 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Wonder why my dictionary tells me that it is sometimes separated. depending.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 1:45:38 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Wonder why my dictionary tells me that it is sometimes separated. depending.


I have truly no idea. It never ever is. Maybe there are analougus cases in which a seperation does happen, and it was transfered to this one? I can not think of one on top of my head though.



_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 2:05:24 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Wonder why my dictionary tells me that it is sometimes separated. depending.


I have truly no idea. It never ever is. Maybe there are analougus cases in which a seperation does happen, and it was transfered to this one? I can not think of one on top of my head though.


Beats me. maybe I could go down to the Goethe Institute, ask a bunch of people, and take the average.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 2:15:58 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Wonder why my dictionary tells me that it is sometimes separated. depending.


I have truly no idea. It never ever is. Maybe there are analougus cases in which a seperation does happen, and it was transfered to this one? I can not think of one on top of my head though.


Beats me. maybe I could go down to the Goethe Institute, ask a bunch of people, and take the average.


I found something that could be the source.
In a sentence like "Ich griff ihr unter den Arm um sie zu stützen.", it is seperated. But it is only seperated because "unter" and "stützen" are two seperate words and used as those, not "unterstützen".
The same sentence with "unterstützen" would be "Ich griff ihr unter den Arm um sie zu unterstützen."
Something like this could be the root of the confusion.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 3:12:57 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Ach! Enough mit der Krautzengabbin already, you two!


geeZ.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 3:19:00 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Ach! Enough mit der Krautzengabbin already, you two!


geeZ.



Spoilsport!

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 3:23:15 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Zensee:
Ich unterstutze dass.
or maybe
Ich stutze dass unter.

CalamitySandra: without a strong determined authoritarian government, regardless of the historical circumstances, it is impossible to envisage the 3rd Reich developing as it did.
Also I wonder how truly disinterested is the info. provided in History classes.?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/14/2008 3:28:01 AM >

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 3:44:07 AM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Zensee:
Ich unterstutze dass.
or maybe
Ich stutze dass unter.

CalamitySandra: without a strong determined authoritarian government, regardless of the historical circumstances, it is impossible to envisage the 3rd Reich developing as it did.
Also I wonder how truly disinterested is the info. provided in History classes.?


But the circumstances out of which that government evolved are radically different than those surrounding the EU today, therefor you can not equate them. The political and social situation in Germany post WW1 was what made the 3rd Reich, and the emerging of the Nazi party possible.

As for info on the 3rd Reich in history and various other classes in german schools? It is copious, detailed and repeated over and over. Starting with about grade 4, there was not one year in which not at least 1 of my classes had a (large) block of time dedicatet to it.

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 7:14:23 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Zensee:
Ich unterstutze dass.
or maybe
Ich stutze dass unter.

CalamitySandra: without a strong determined authoritarian government, regardless of the historical circumstances, it is impossible to envisage the 3rd Reich developing as it did.
Also I wonder how truly disinterested is the info. provided in History classes.?


But the circumstances out of which that government evolved are radically different than those surrounding the EU today, therefor you can not equate them. The political and social situation in Germany post WW1 was what made the 3rd Reich, and the emerging of the Nazi party possible.

As for info on the 3rd Reich in history and various other classes in german schools? It is copious, detailed and repeated over and over. Starting with about grade 4, there was not one year in which not at least 1 of my classes had a (large) block of time dedicatet to it.


I like that, Germans took the "those who forget the past are doomed to repeated it"  and followed through.
Post ww1 Germany made it possible for the National Socialists to come to power. People forget that Hitler came to power lawfully via article 48  of the weimar constitution.




(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 7:17:22 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Hopefully we have now established the distinction between the EU and the Third Reich. Hopefully.

The OP asked what good membership of the EU did "for the common man".  Well, leaving aside the benefits gained from a more bouyant overall economic landscape, I think I'm right in saying that Cornwall has received huge funds for development from Europe and began a second five year programme of investment about a month ago.

quote:


Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly was an Objective One region for the period 2000-2006 and from 2007 onwards, Cornwall has again been identified as having a weak economy relative to the EU average, and has therefore been awarded EU Convergence status worth €579m over the period 2007-2013. 

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=13202

Five years ago, Cornwall  had unemployment above the national average.  Today, despite an increase in population, it has unemployment below the national average (and way below that across EU countries) as a result of massive funding to infrastructure and training - expanding universities, laying digital cable so that new business gets a head start, grants to small business and on and on and on... the economy of the region has been transformed.


quote:


An EU funding programme which should bring almost £300m of investment into Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly begins on Wednesday 30 Jan 08.
The Convergence Programme is designed to build on the past six years of Objective One European grant aid.
The Regional Development Agency will be in charge of distributing the cash for two new investment programmes.
Cornwall is getting the cash as part of £540m of EU Structural Funds being distributed across South West England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7216964.stm

If there is one region in this country that should be singing Europe's praises, its the SouthWest.  Instead, we get the usual miserabilist tale of how tough things are, swallowed whole from the right wing media.  I would love a sane answer as to why that is but somehow I suspect it will be a long time coming.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 7:26:23 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.cbi.org.uk/ndbs/press.nsf/0363c1f07c6ca12a8025671c00381cc7/9d6b8439c37cc6cb802567ae00542526?OpenDocument
quote:





CBI members are in favour in principle of UK entry into EMU, once the key conditions for success are in place. They believe that UK membership has the potential to deliver significant benefits to the UK economy, but that progress is still needed within the euro-zone to ensure the economic success of the EMU project and to minimise the risks involved


British business wants closer links with Europe according to a press release today.  The CBI represents businesses large and small and has always been in favour of the Euro.  From small enterprises through to massive corporations, the demand is there with nothing but the emotive cries of the little englanders holding us back.

If we had a referendum tomorrow, there is no doubt that voters listening to the wrong people would plunge this country into an economic nightmare that would make 77-78 look like boomtime. 

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 7:28:26 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Will the forces of reaction ever shut up, Licks?

_____________________________



(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Europe - 3/14/2008 7:42:36 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I don't mind them talking, its the tendency to run from the debate that is frustrating.  I share some of their concerns but their certainty over the solutions belongs to another, much simpler era.  I actually feel sorry for them, kittin, seriously!

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 80
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