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Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 10:23:02 PM   
celticlord2112


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From the article:
quote:


Obama said he abided by party rules in skipping the two contests and questioned Clinton's call now for counting them.


For one who emphasizes the "will of the people", he seems quite at ease disregarding the expression of that will when it suits his purposes.


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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 10:27:08 PM   
SinergyNstrumpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080312/pl_nm/usa_politics_revote_dc;_ylt=Ar3uo1UNhVy.aI9TYFpB4uaMwfIE

From the article:
quote:


Obama said he abided by party rules in skipping the two contests and questioned Clinton's call now for counting them.


For one who emphasizes the "will of the people", he seems quite at ease disregarding the expression of that will when it suits his purposes.



All of the candidates agreed to not campaign in those states because these states ignored the primary rules and thumbed their noses at them. If Hillary had announced her intention on campaigning in Florida and given a heads up that she was not going to abide by the gentleman's agreement not to campaign in those states because they were not in alignment with the rules, or Obama had likewise not kept his word and campaigned in those states too, I would agree with you. I do not believe that Clinton should profit from dirty dealings and not keeping her word... it is a little thing called honor, and she has none.

julia

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 10:45:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

All of the candidates agreed to not campaign in those states because these states ignored the primary rules and thumbed their noses at them. If Hillary had announced her intention on campaigning in Florida and given a heads up that she was not going to abide by the gentleman's agreement not to campaign in those states because they were not in alignment with the rules, or Obama had likewise not kept his word and campaigned in those states too, I would agree with you. I do not believe that Clinton should profit from dirty dealings and not keeping her word... it is a little thing called honor, and she has none.


So Florida and Michigan voters in the Democratic Primary should be disenfranchised in order to punish Clinton?

If that is what passes for fairness from the Democrats, then I am glad I'm not a Democrat.  I'm not overjoyed at McCain, am fairly disenchanted at anything Republican, but the Democrats' having a flexible ethic on the sanctity of the ballot box makes voting Republican quite easy.

Set up a do-over.  Reduce the delegate size (might as well since the superdelegates get to decide this one anyway).  There are viable routes to letting the Florida and Michigan voters have a say in the process--the DNC just needs to find the political backbone to make it happen, and the candidates needs to show some statesmanlike qualities and stand up for the voters.

You can't be President of just 48 of the 50 states.  You lead all 50 or none at all.


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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 10:54:03 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Minor detail...

She did NOT campain there and the article points that out in the third paragraph.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080312/pl_nm/usa_politics_revote_dc;_ylt=Ar3uo1UNhVy.aI9TYFpB4uaMwfIE

From the article:
quote:


Obama said he abided by party rules in skipping the two contests and questioned Clinton's call now for counting them.


For one who emphasizes the "will of the people", he seems quite at ease disregarding the expression of that will when it suits his purposes.



All of the candidates agreed to not campaign in those states because these states ignored the primary rules and thumbed their noses at them. If Hillary had announced her intention on campaigning in Florida and given a heads up that she was not going to abide by the gentleman's agreement not to campaign in those states because they were not in alignment with the rules, or Obama had likewise not kept his word and campaigned in those states too, I would agree with you. I do not believe that Clinton should profit from dirty dealings and not keeping her word... it is a little thing called honor, and she has none.

julia


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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 10:57:46 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The voter`s right to be counted should trump any other consideration.

Regardless of party or office level.

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 11:15:23 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The voter`s right to be counted should trump any other consideration.

Regardless of party or office level.


Yup.

Stephan


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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 11:18:17 PM   
SinergyNstrumpet


Posts: 305
Joined: 2/26/2008
Status: offline 		Im not a democrat either.... and yes, Clinton shouldn't prosper from going against her word.

My point of view...

julia

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/12/2008 11:19:59 PM   
SinergyNstrumpet


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quote:

Minor detail...

She did NOT campain there and the article points that out in the third paragraph.


The article is incorrect. She went to Florida two days before the primary for fundraising dinners and made sure she was pictured for several photo ops that got a lot of press...

julia

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 12:54:04 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		If the right to be counted in the primary vote is so important, what about all the people turned away at the Cuacuses?

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 8:45:50 AM   
SinergyNstrumpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If the right to be counted in the primary vote is so important, what about all the people turned away at the Cuacuses?


Please show me the article as I have no idea what you are speaking of?


julia

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 8:58:57 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If the right to be counted in the primary vote is so important, what about all the people turned away at the Cuacuses?


I would like to see the news references on that.  The right to be counted is important, and if people are getting turned away, that merits major scrutiny.


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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 9:03:52 AM   
SinergyNstrumpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If the right to be counted in the primary vote is so important, what about all the people turned away at the Cuacuses?


I would like to see the news references on that.  The right to be counted is important, and if people are getting turned away, that merits major scrutiny.



You mean like in Ohio in the last presidential election?

Or in Florida in election 2000?

I agree voting is important, and it is a major snafu for the Democrats, but it was not the whole state that was disenfranchised, only democrats. Democrats are used to being disenfranchised in Florida and targeted for scrubbing off the voting registar. Just sayin'

I am so glad I am not a democrat anymore, or a republican. If I were a democrat in Florida I would probably vote my representatives out of office because they moved the primary against the rules and caused me to lose my vote.

julia

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 9:19:06 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If the right to be counted in the primary vote is so important, what about all the people turned away at the Cuacuses?


I would like to see the news references on that.  The right to be counted is important, and if people are getting turned away, that merits major scrutiny.



New newly moderate and moderated luckydog is trying to confuse rather than shed light.

Caucuses are not democratic and are not like primaries.

Not many states don`t have caucuses.Many do.Many states have a mix of caucuses and primary elections,like Texas.

Caucuses don`t work or run in the same way primaries do.

Most caucuses don`t run the same way or follow the same rules as each other.When they open,close,how they operate,etc., are all up the the various states and counties.


It`s a long time traditional political gathering and is still used today.

There`s no consistency and trying to figure it all out is not easy.It`s goes from the arcane to the confusing.

However,using that ambiguity and lack of knowledge to mislead folks is what lucky is up to.

There`s no evidence of anyone`s vote not being counted,accept for Florida and Michigan and no need for lucky`s fake outrage. 

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/13/2008 9:33:51 AM >

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 9:55:33 AM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		If I recall correctly...Clinton did not campain but her name was on the ballots in those states, the only Demcrate..and won...so I am not surprised she wants those votes.

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 11:10:38 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"In Alaska there was a record-setting turnout for Super Tuesday that came with big problems for Democrats attempting to caucus in Anchorage.
Traffic was snarled headed to Begich Middle School and the turnout was so great officials extended the voting deadline. CHANGED THE RULES .....
Organizers were expecting about 3,500 caucus-goers and were instead bombarded with closer to 5,000 people, some of whom left rather discouraged from the ordeal.
Outside the school, on Muldoon Road, traffic was backed up for miles. In freezing temperatures, many abandoned their cars trying to make it to the caucus on time.
Many did not.......
Despite all the problems, organizers say very few people were turned away.
"I think the energy that is here, by and large, is entirely positive," Teeters said. "Everyone in this room feels like they have a voice and that's really what matters." " Is it, or is counting everyone who wants to participate what really matters?
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23040326/

I was under the impression that several of the states Cuacuses and Primaries had serious problems early on.  If you listened to Air America, you would have heard about a lot of them.

"There`s no evidence of anyone`s vote not being counted,accept for Florida and Michigan and no need for lucky`s fake outrage."  It's not fake outrage, and I am getting tired of you sniping at me owner. 
 

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 11:24:38 AM   
PlayfulOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

If I recall correctly...Clinton did not campain but her name was on the ballots in those states, the only Demcrate..and won...so I am not surprised she wants those votes.


Wrong,

Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Biden, Kucinich, Gravel, Dodd, and Richardson were all on the ballot.  Now we know, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Richardson all dropped out before the primary, but they were still on the ballot.

You can't claim to be an "agent of change" and want to exclude one of the more populous states just because you might not win.

Clinton never campaigned here.  She never spoke she nly flew in for the fund raisers and left.  Of course there were pictures, have you ever noticed the horde of cameras that follow them around?

The  DNC thought it would be easy and those stated wouldn't matter.  Well now its so close that they do.

K

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 11:49:42 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

You mean like in Ohio in the last presidential election?

Or in Florida in election 2000?

I agree voting is important, and it is a major snafu for the Democrats, but it was not the whole state that was disenfranchised, only democrats. Democrats are used to being disenfranchised in Florida and targeted for scrubbing off the voting registar. Just sayin'



"Just sayin'"?

That's disingenuous at best. Whenever voters are disenfranchised, that's a problem for the system. After the morass of Florida 2000, I am surprised the DNC could be so oblivious to that simple truth.

A perfect electoral process may not be feasible each and every time, but if we blithely accept the imperfect status quo, how will it get better?

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 12:13:01 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

If I recall correctly...Clinton did not campain but her name was on the ballots in those states, the only Demcrate..and won...so I am not surprised she wants those votes.


Wrong,

Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Biden, Kucinich, Gravel, Dodd, and Richardson were all on the ballot. Now we know, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Richardson all dropped out before the primary, but they were still on the ballot.

You can't claim to be an "agent of change" and want to exclude one of the more populous states just because you might not win.

Clinton never campaigned here. She never spoke she nly flew in for the fund raisers and left. Of course there were pictures, have you ever noticed the horde of cameras that follow them around?

The DNC thought it would be easy and those stated wouldn't matter. Well now its so close that they do.

K



Obama's not an agent of change. His ideas might have been new when Leon Trotsky first proposed them, but they were tried and trashed ages ago.

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 12:29:23 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
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Status: offline 		I think there is a more compelling Bush and Trotsky link:
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/austindependence/neo-cons.html

Just sayin'...

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RE: Clinton and Obama disagree on Florida, Michigan revote - 3/13/2008 12:32:10 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080312/pl_nm/usa_politics_revote_dc;_ylt=Ar3uo1UNhVy.aI9TYFpB4uaMwfIE

From the article:
quote:


Obama said he abided by party rules in skipping the two contests and questioned Clinton's call now for counting them.


For one who emphasizes the "will of the people", he seems quite at ease disregarding the expression of that will when it suits his purposes.



It is important to have an idea of your subject matter before you start a thread.

Florida and Michigan changed the date of their primaries to try and make their states votes more relevant...You can't do it. It only makes sense. So the DNC ruled that both states delegates would not be seated at the party convention. All of the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in Florida and Michigan before the primary.


It is estimated that it will cost the DNC upwards of $20 million to hold another primary.

From CNN...

"another problem is that the state(Florida) needs 90 days to prepare for a primary once the governor and legislature have signed off on a new election. That approval has not come, and any new primary would have to be held before June 10 to comply with DNC rules.

June 10, however, is 91 days away, and there is no immediate compromise on a statewide election in sight."


A mail in ballot is a possibility...I don't have a great deal of faith in Florida holding an election where you have to show up to cast a vote....Mail it in? Forget it.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/13/2008 12:34:33 PM >

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