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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 7:46:55 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


I don't understand why it is necessary to like ones country, many people get involved in politics precisely because they don't like their country and want to change it. Obama keeps ranting on about change do there is obviously something he doesn't like about his country.


I did not like a great deal of the things my boys did as they grew up.  I exerted great effort to change their thinking in many ways, to align their outlook with mine (with varying degrees of success).

Yet I have never once stopped loving them.  Even in those times when they were receiving the worst punishments I meted out, they were still loved and cherished.  To this day, they are loved and cherished.  To the end of days, they will be loved and cherished.

I submit one cannot desire to change this country for the better if one does not first like this country.  Before the desire to change can exist there must be a fundamental caring, a fundamental affection.  To demonize, to villify, to condemn, is not to seek change but to celebrate anger.  Americans are not angels, but neither are we demons.  There are for which wrongs we should apologize, and wrongs for which we should not.  Change of any sort will begin from that premise and from no other.

I want to see this country change for the better.  I desire this because I care deeply for this country.  It is my home.  It is the country whose constitution I swore to defend as a Marine.  I despise Bush, I disagree with most government policies and actions, but I would not choose to be anything but what I am--an American.

quote:


The reason I have refused to vote myself in the last four or five elections in Britain is because no politician has stood up and said this country is shit and I want to change it and make it better.


Taking yourself out of the system is not change, but resignation and defeatism, be it here or in Britain.


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 7:51:09 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If the case is only about a pastor saying god should curse america where was the outrage on the right when these things were said:


I can only tell you where my outrage was to each of the things you mentioned:  in letters to the editor of the Houston Chronicle.


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 7:51:29 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
If you had the power how would you end discrimination?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a good answer to this question, but do feel that using racially charged rhetoric to discuss racism, probably isn't helpful.
Being a "good boy" hasn't seemed to have been very helpful either.
 
 
 
I'm willing to give Pastor Wright the benefit of doubt. Perhaps he was just preaching, and was overtaken by the spirit of the moment, and the fervor of the congregation, and spoke a bit out of turn.
That is awful white of you.
 
 
My understanding is, that he is a very good man and his church does a lot to benefit the poor, of all races. I'm willing to accept that he was really discussing white racists, of which there are many, and really didn't mean to lump an entire race in to one evil group, based on the color of their skin.
I thought he was pretty specific about who he was condemning.  I think it is instructive to look on this thread at who is feeling blamed and who is not.
 
 
It would be nice though, to get some clerification from him, and perhaps even a public apology ... and spare us the spin that he has shown in some interviews.
Do you think a rape victim should clarify which rapist she is angry with so that those rapist who did not actually rape her would not feel unjustly condemned?


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/21/2008 7:53:47 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 8:03:31 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I submit one cannot desire to change this country for the better if one does not first like this country.  Before the desire to change can exist there must be a fundamental caring, a fundamental affection.  To demonize, to villify, to condemn, is not to seek change but to celebrate anger.
The preacher man was condemning the acts of amerika not the country of America.



Americans are not angels, but neither are we demons.  There are for which wrongs we should apologize, and wrongs for which we should not. 
Which wrongs are we not suppose to apologize for?


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 9:07:32 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

If the case is only about a pastor saying god should curse america where was the outrage on the right when these things were said:


I can only tell you where my outrage was to each of the things you mentioned:  in letters to the editor of the Houston Chronicle.



But the question remains how is it that the right can wax outraged on Reverend Wright but not have called for the isolation and condemnation of Falwell and Robertson by GWB and the rest of the GOP leadership?

Here is a discussion of this hypocrisy by someone who helped found the present politicized RR:

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 9:08:46 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:


The reason I have refused to vote myself in the last four or five elections in Britain is because no politician has stood up and said this country is shit and I want to change it and make it better.


Taking yourself out of the system is not change, but resignation and defeatism, be it here or in Britain.



As a well loved British comedian and satirist, Peter Cook, once said, voting only encourages politicians. The low vote in the last British election and the high turn out in demonstrating against the war in Iraq, did actually register with the politicians that they have a problem. Though they haven't yet quite got to grips with the idea that a large % of the country think the current politicians and they way they do things is the problem. The nature of politicians is that if people vote, they will believe they are endorsing their shitty system.

As left winger Tony Benn pointed out, all major reforms are won outside the legislature and then the legislature rubber stamps the reforms and claims the credit. It was rather funny when he resigned from Parliament to take up a career in politics. Which is exactly my feeling. It is better to be a member of the permanent opposition.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 9:17:59 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:


I don't understand why it is necessary to like ones country, many people get involved in politics precisely because they don't like their country and want to change it. Obama keeps ranting on about change do there is obviously something he doesn't like about his country.


I did not like a great deal of the things my boys did as they grew up.  I exerted great effort to change their thinking in many ways, to align their outlook with mine (with varying degrees of success).

Yet I have never once stopped loving them.  Even in those times when they were receiving the worst punishments I meted out, they were still loved and cherished.  To this day, they are loved and cherished.  To the end of days, they will be loved and cherished.

I submit one cannot desire to change this country for the better if one does not first like this country.  Before the desire to change can exist there must be a fundamental caring, a fundamental affection.  To demonize, to villify, to condemn, is not to seek change but to celebrate anger.  Americans are not angels, but neither are we demons.  There are for which wrongs we should apologize, and wrongs for which we should not.  Change of any sort will begin from that premise and from no other.

I want to see this country change for the better.  I desire this because I care deeply for this country.  It is my home.  It is the country whose constitution I swore to defend as a Marine.  I despise Bush, I disagree with most government policies and actions, but I would not choose to be anything but what I am--an American.



One doesn't choose ones country of birth, one is born into a nation whether one likes it or not. I think there is a difference between connecting with the population one is born into and the land and climate etc and the state. I love the British, the British landscape, there is something powerful in it for me, yes, largely because I was born and brought up in it but I also intensely dislike the British state and all it stands for and all its hypocrisy and son't see any conflict in those two feelings. My great uncle once said about fighting in WWI, they (the ordinary soldiers) shouldn't have been shooting at the Germans but turning and shooting the bastards that sent them to war. That basically sums up my feelinds. It wouldn't surprise me if many black Americans love their country but intensely dislike the American state and all it has done to them.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/21/2008 9:51:25 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 9:20:11 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Wright is expressing a common belief amongst the black community that the US government is/was involved in the cocaine/crack trade.



Common myths such as that among whites about blacks, when taught in white churches as the gospel, would be considered racism - and rightfully so. It's a part of his speil against white AmeriKKKa. His hate America, especially WHITE America rhetoric. What's not to get?

quote:


The first two quotes are by the Reverend Jerry Falwell and the third is by the Reverend Pat Robertson. So where was the outrage? How is it that those two leaders of the GOP could spew forth this sort of bile and Obama cannot even be associated with a pastor who said roughly the same thing?


You're mistaken. They're not leaders of the GOP any more than Louis Farrakhan is a leader of the DNC. And I support Farrakhan's right to free speech even if it's hateful, same goes for Robertson and Falwell. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Obama sat through his sermons for twenty years, and made huge donations to that racist. MCCAIN DID NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/21/2008 9:21:52 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 9:53:32 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

So why the huge row about comments from a sermon, not the Gospel? Where does all this fear come from?


It's not fear.  It's outrage.  I am no saint, but neither am I a racist. 


Outrage suggests that you find racism the most heinous crime imaginable.  If you have that sentiment in common with your fellow Americans, why is there so much racism in your society?  Outrage is justified if someone challenges every racist he encounters and still wants to do more, when I suspect most white Americans are nowhere near so concerned about it.

quote:


A sermon is a teaching, a moral lesson from pastor to parishoner.  Wright's teaching to Obama seems rather explicit.  America, as a whole, should literally go to Hell.  That is the significance of "God damn America."--it is a curse leveled by Wright on the length and breadth of this nation, and upon each and every person who calls themselves "American."


Come on celtic, we're talking about a pastor trying to keep his congregation awake with a little theatricality.  I'm not a religious person but if I know this is part of the play, you ought to too.  Like Wright, and you, the kids in that church will go on to leave school, join the Marines and then adopt calm, productive lives in suburbs bounded by white picket fences and indignance at impropriety.  It's not some satanic malediction aimed at fermenting hatred but a reminder of teh challenges they face.

quote:


Public reaction from other parishioner's at Trinity Church indicates a lack of even surprise at this teaching.  Public reaction indicates the church membership by and large agrees with Wright.  From this one has to conclude that such teachings are not uncommon for Wright.  The curse within this one teaching thus taints all of Wright's teachings

These are the spiritual teachings Obama has received for 20 years.  These are the teachings Obama, even in his eloquent speech earlier this week, refused to reject.  This is the spiritual teacher Obama embraced in that speech as "family".


All fair assumptions, however as Obama has made abundantly clear, it's not the letter of the sermon but the spirit of it that should concern you.  If racism offends you so much, why not a single thought for how you are going to bridge the gap between yourself and your compatriots?  How does "outrage" help, exactly?

quote:


Obama is not merely a public figure looking to jumpstart a new dialogue on race and racism in America.  He is a man seeking to be President, to lead America.  As one of the Americans Obama desires to lead, I reject the leadership of one who has been taught for 20 years that I belong in Hell.  Obama is not a suitable candidate for President--for all his eloquence, his choice of spiritual teacher shows his character unfit to occupy the Oval Office.



You're really warming to your theme now.  Are you enjoying your outrage?  Just a little bit?  The highlighted part is an exaggeration and you know it.  Like I said elsewhere, if main street America instead of indignantly stomping their feet, grasped the nettle and accepted that there are massive divisions there, they would earn enormous respect - both at home and overseas.  (It's the same story here, btw). 

Step one is everybody agreeing to abandon the moral high ground - the "outrage" that really is just a way of getting off the hook - and getting down to identifying and achieving what's needed.

But since I am a cynic, my money is on even more outrage.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:03:18 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:


The first two quotes are by the Reverend Jerry Falwell and the third is by the Reverend Pat Robertson. So where was the outrage? How is it that those two leaders of the GOP could spew forth this sort of bile and Obama cannot even be associated with a pastor who said roughly the same thing?


You're mistaken. They're not leaders of the GOP any more than Louis Farrakhan is a leader of the DNC. And I support Farrakhan's right to free speech even if it's hateful, same goes for Robertson and Falwell. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Obama sat through his sermons for twenty years, and made huge donations to that racist. MCCAIN DID NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR!

Robertson and Falwell aren't/weren't leaders of the Republican party? Where have you been the last 30 years?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:07:53 AM   
MadameTakhisis


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Status: offline 		If your pastor of your church DID NOT speak ill of 9-11 and our government you need to leave because your pastor is keeping you sleep and prepared for slaughter!

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:26:13 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		For the sake of argument, lets pretend that they are or were.

You're outraged. There it is. There's the outrage.

Where's the outrage about Obama's racist church? And while you wouldn't want Falwell or Robertson as president, why can't you understand why others would oppose someone like Obama, someone from a church of hate like that as president. For the record, I don't want Falwell or Robertson's church members elected either. Especially anyone who gives them six-figure donations!

quote:


Robertson and Falwell aren't/weren't leaders of the Republican party? Where have you been the last 30 years?


< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/21/2008 10:31:34 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:34:34 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Robertson and Falwell are leaders of the republican party the same way Micheal Moore and Cindy Sheehan are leaders in the Democratic party.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:40:58 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Robertson and Falwell are leaders of the republican party the same way Micheal Moore and Cindy Sheehan are leaders in the Democratic party.

When did Moore or Sheehan run for president? When did either speak from the podium of a Democratic party presidential nominating convention?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:43:53 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

For the sake of argument, lets pretend that they are or were.

You're outraged. There it is. There's the outrage.

Where's the outrage about Obama's racist church? And while you wouldn't want Falwell or Robertson as president, why can't you understand why others would oppose someone like Obama, someone from a church of hate like that as president. For the record, I don't want Falwell or Robertson's church members elected either. Especially anyone who gives them six-figure donations!

quote:


Robertson and Falwell aren't/weren't leaders of the Republican party? Where have you been the last 30 years?


You're missing the point. I don't like Wright's or Falwell's or Robertson's and wouldn't vote for any of them for POTUS. However the folks waxing outraged over Wright on the right never seem to have shown the same outrage or calls for condemnation and isolation about Falwell and Robertson. That's hypocritical.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 10:56:48 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		I stated several times months ago that if Huckabee was the nominee, I would be voting for Hillary or Obama.

The Republicans decided to sideline the Religous right, and go with a socially modetrate Hawk. 

If Obama had not given 5 figure donations to this guy, there would be far less linkage.  Why isn't anyone on the left defending his giving large sums of money to Wright. 

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 11:01:10 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		A lack of criticism, criticism that you never heard?

How many wrong things have you personally failed to criticize, or how many wrong things have I never heard you criticize.

Are you saying you're a hypocrite on account of all of them?


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You're missing the point. I don't like Wright's or Falwell's or Robertson's and wouldn't vote for any of them for POTUS. However the folks waxing outraged over Wright on the right never seem to have shown the same outrage or calls for condemnation and isolation about Falwell and Robertson. That's hypocritical.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/21/2008 11:02:49 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 11:05:23 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That is awful white of you.


Feel better now?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 11:17:29 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

folks waxing outraged over Wright on the right never seem to have shown the same outrage or calls for condemnation and isolation about Falwell and Robertson. That's hypocritical.



No, that's politics. The goal is the character assassination of the opponent.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/21/2008 11:22:29 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/21/2008 11:22:50 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're missing the point. I don't like Wright's or Falwell's or Robertson's and wouldn't vote for any of them for POTUS. However the folks waxing outraged over Wright on the right never seem to have shown the same outrage or calls for condemnation and isolation about Falwell and Robertson. That's hypocritical.



No, that's politics. The goal is the character assassination of the opponent.

And pointing out the hypocrisy of it helps to show the outrage to be a lie.

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