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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 7:14:32 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

My only real concern with Obama is, he's speaking as if in twenty years he didn't know this about Wright. I would care less if he just admitted that Wright held some views that he disagreed with, than saying he never heard them. Yeah. I think that will ultimately destroy him. It brings up the worst memories of a not so distant charismatic president lying well, and people will recoil from that so quickly it'll seem he never was in the race for the presidency(if proven).

My reaction to Wright's words is more visceral, but I definitely agree that Obama's fundamental problem is one of credibility.

quote:

And who cares about "typical white woman", and you know what I don't care if someone says "typical black woman" either given the context. Fucking people need to grow up, and stop being whiny bitches. I mean seriously "typical white woman" WHO CARES. It was a slip of the tongue, mildly poorly chosen words which most of the times, these things are, but rarely do people give anybody the benefit of the doubt. He didn't call her a "dumb white cunt", or a "red neck", or anything.

The irony of Obama choosing his words poorly is that at one point in this campaign he had quite a lot to say about how "words do matter". That Obama now should speak carelessly would truly hoist him by his own petard.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 7:43:37 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
running a race based campaign.

He hasn't been doing that at all, its others who keep introducing race as an issue where Obama is concerned.

You are correct he "hasn't" now he has made it a cornerstone. I said in its entirety. "He began a campaign under the banner of being the first "post racial candidate". No racial inferences. Now he assumes there are "typical Whites", and seems to be running a race based campaign."

Pointing to "typical Whites" would indicate race. Who introduced that concept?

However it seems its all he has. All his other qualities seem to have been shown just as hollow at this point.

Everything being said echos back his words, his promises, and his commitment. The vacillation of his response is indicative of his dearth of experience. He was a novelty act that ran its course. Unfortunately it ran right through the primaries, and it would be suicide for the DNC to try and designate Senator Clinton as the nominee. Best they can do is hope for a bigger and more nasty 'smoking gun' to derail him completely. If anyone can do that, the Clinton campaign machine can.

The reality of this issue is that all this did was expose him. As a result it started the long needed questioning of him to put a 'how?' follow up question to the all the 'what' of his "Vote for Change" mantra. Think there was confusing with the word "is"? The last interview on Andersen's show gave a broader definition of another sexual term - "withdraw"; used in context of Iraq.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 7:47:41 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

cl -

You would have to have led a remarkably sheltered life not to be aware of the sense of injustice felt by black America.

The flip side to that? White America this. White America that. I'm a criminal because I'm white. I deserve to get the shit beat out of me for breaking down in the wrong neighborhood for having money and being white - after all, the black preacher says so.

No one is criminal because of what colour they are but not to recognize historical injustices and not to attempt to correct them but fake outrage at the mere suggestion historical injustices have a contemporary relevance is just a rather immoral stand to take. The victims of that historical injustice might say it is criminal. Neither is this white outrage limited to America but quite widely in Europe too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I don't accept that. Why should I? Where is the healing. Why does the black pastor preach hate, and why do you keep asking for outrage. That's not me. I don't "get" outrage. It does no good. I'm calm, I'm cool, and I'm collected even under fire. What I do get is judging a man by his deeds as opposed to the color of his skin. The black pastor preaches that rich whites cause all the problems - besides being racist, he preaches that thou shalt covet thy neighbors wealth... and he seems to preach revenge.

From the quotes I have heard and read from him, he isn't preaching hate, he is morally outraged at the lack of correction of historical injustices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
What kind of damn church is that anyway. You know, I'm not Christian, but I've read the bible many times and I've studied the bible with people of several different faiths, and I've never heard so much hatred before, from anyone as this pastor of Obama's. The only thing I can compare it with is the Ku Klux Klan. Seriously.

Hatred? I think you are trying to muddy the waters. Anger and outrage at worst. It's hardly the craziest church in America either.

Considering the historical injustices blacks have had to suffer, the lack of wide spread hatred amongst black people is something they should be admired for.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/22/2008 7:51:24 AM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 8:14:59 AM

celticlord2112

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Considering the historical injustices blacks have had to suffer, the lack of wide spread hatred amongst black people is something they should be admired for.

This is utter nonsense. Listening to a number of black spokesmen and preachers (Wright, Manning, Farrakhan, Quannel X--local activist here in Houston), there is plenty of hatred to be found among blacks.

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:43:18 AM

cloudboy

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What we've learned is that his opponents will be playing the race card: the Republicans and Hillary Clinton. Clearly, Obama has to respond to it.

I don't see Obama's inexperience or youth as negative, like you do. To me, he's a more polished version of Bill Clinton: extremely intelligent, charismatic, articulate, and highly popular abroad.

The Republicans fear him more than Hillary, as they should. What's really cool is how he's garnering a strong vote from military personnel.

He'll beat McCain in a landslide.

I guess we'll have to revisit this in NOVEMBER.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:52:58 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

Historical Injustices

Actually, he's not spending a lot of time looking backward. Most of his "rhetoric" is pointed at a more ripe, relevant target: THE REPUBLICAN administration of Foreign and Domestic policy.

When it comes down to voting either for the OLD FART or the best up-and-comer since Kennedy, Obama will will win HUGE.

Funny, Merc talks about how "hollow" Obama is, but he had the fortitude and courage to vote against giving GWB the "use of force" to invade IRAQ. At least he got his single most important Senatorial vote right.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:25:29 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Considering the historical injustices blacks have had to suffer, the lack of wide spread hatred amongst black people is something they should be admired for.

This is utter nonsense. Listening to a number of black spokesmen and preachers (Wright, Manning, Farrakhan, Quannel X--local activist here in Houston), there is plenty of hatred to be found among blacks.

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

Blacks don't have the power to oppress white people in America or Europe, white people have the power to oppress blacks and many white people take advantage of that. Just look at the prison populations and just look at how different blacks and whites are treated for commiting the same crime.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:41:56 AM

Sanity

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Pfft. Obama wasn't even on the national political stage when that vote was taken. He's the junior Senator from Illinois, who first took his seat in the Senate in 2005. Prior to that he was in the Illinois state Senate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Historical Injustices

Actually, he's not spending a lot of time looking backward. Most of his "rhetoric" is pointed at a more ripe, relevant target: THE REPUBLICAN administration of Foreign and Domestic policy.

When it comes down to voting either for the OLD FART or the best up-and-comer since Kennedy, Obama will will win HUGE.

Funny, Merc talks about how "hollow" Obama is, but he had the fortitude and courage to vote against giving GWB the "use of force" to invade IRAQ. At least he got his single most important Senatorial vote right.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:44:04 AM

celticlord2112

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Funny, Merc talks about how "hollow" Obama is, but he had the fortitude and courage to vote against giving GWB the "use of force" to invade IRAQ. At least he got his single most important Senatorial vote right.

Obama never cast that vote in the Senate.

He wasn't in the Senate until 2004, after Major Military Operations were declared over.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 11:09:45 AM

Mercnbeth

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Obama had the fortitude and courage to vote against giving GWB the "use of force" to invade IRAQ.

Obama never cast that vote in the Senate.
He wasn't in the Senate until 2004, after Major Military Operations were declared over.

CL,
Down right unfair! Come on we're talking about Senator Obama! Facts, 'historical reference' when not supporting, and results obviously aren't germane to the campaign. It is the IMAGE that he voted against the invasion that must be projected in front of the, referenced in another thread, "herd". Stop pointing to the lack of clothes!

quote:

Funny, Merc talks about how "hollow" Obama is, but he had the fortitude and courage to vote against giving GWB the "use of force" to invade IRAQ. At least he got his single most important Senatorial vote right.

cb,
Still funny? It's turning out he's as hollow as the chocolate easter bunnies being given out tomorrow.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 11:10:48 AM

celticlord2112

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Blacks don't have the power to oppress white people in America or Europe, white people have the power to oppress blacks and many white people take advantage of that. Just look at the prison populations and just look at how different blacks and whites are treated for commiting the same crime.

Again:

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

References to "white people" and "black people" are racist regardless of which side of the color divide you happen to be on. So long as those seeking "discussion" on these issues persist in dividing people up on the basis of race, racism itself will continue.

Rail against it all you like. It remains the order of things.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 11:43:42 AM

cloudboy

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That's right, sorry, he just came out opposed to THE IRAQ WAR when he was an Illinois State Senator. Its not the same thing as I mistakenly claimed.

He still took the right stand, and his reasoning behind it was prescient.

"What I do oppose is a DUMB WAR...."

Frank Schaeffer's "military family" perspective:

Obama was right on Iraq from the start. Moreover because of his serendipitous ethnic, social and political background, Obama is uniquely positioned to reach out to the world and help restore America's image and thus make all our men and women in uniform somewhat safer. Thus a vote for Obama is the true pro-military vote. And it is also a vote for honor because honor rests on truth.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 12:20:27 PM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Considering the historical injustices blacks have had to suffer, the lack of wide spread hatred amongst black people is something they should be admired for.

This is utter nonsense. Listening to a number of black spokesmen and preachers (Wright, Manning, Farrakhan, Quannel X--local activist here in Houston), there is plenty of hatred to be found among blacks.

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

I totaly agree.. hate and intolerance only begets more hate and intolerance.

I have worked with the NAACP in the past. a good amount of them could never understand why a "white girl" from a good family would want to help them. Why in the fuck would I care. Many like The Rev. here are still ( in thier minds) rightiously pissed.

I am not entirely white. I am Cherokee. I am one of the many groups of people the world over who have been killed, enslaved, changed, moved off thier lands, forcabily converted to another religion alien to our own. You name it. The world over is full of people who have been shit on. Most look back at thier histories and say ya know.. that was fucked.. lets get our shit together and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. There are some though that hold onto that hatred of being the ones who got shit on. ( look at the middle east) The hatred still burns in them centuries later. It is absurd. They usualy preach thier hatred and list thier wrongs through spiritual leaders. ( black churches here, and thier churches, synagogues and mosques there)

I see my realitives who are still on the rez. and I can understand being upset and angry. But I never condone hatred.

I was totaly unimpressed by Obama's speech. I can understand not denouncing a kinda cooky friend.. but if I was part of a spiritual community that included a minster who held such strong beliefs that were so vastly different to mine I would not be part of that congregation. I would not be married by that pastor, nor have my child baptized by that person.

I do not know how many of you are church goers.. but one does not go to nor stay in a church when the pastor's beliefs are vastly different to your own. You simply do not stay and support those ideas. You do not stay and tithe giving your money to further those ideas.

I can assure you after going to church for 20 years he know what was on his pastors mind.. and being a close friend of this pastor.. he really knew. I have known my minister since really just Nov. of last year and I can tell you most of his views.

I think it is deplorable to say he had no idea. I think it is deplorable to say they have every right to be violent and act as his pastor has.

Hate, and anger solves nothing. Going out there and being better people and working in the community and doing something about inequality is what works and matters. If Obama was half the man he thought he was.. and the US wished he was.. he would have helped his pastor, and the congregation see that. If he can not turn the tide of one angry congregation how in the hell can he do it for a whole nation? How can he stand up for any one?

Gwyn

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 12:34:20 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Considering the historical injustices blacks have had to suffer, the lack of wide spread hatred amongst black people is something they should be admired for.

This is utter nonsense. Listening to a number of black spokesmen and preachers (Wright, Manning, Farrakhan, Quannel X--local activist here in Houston), there is plenty of hatred to be found among blacks.

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

I totaly agree.. hate and intolerance only begets more hate and intolerance.

I have worked with the NAACP in the past. a good amount of them could never understand why a "white girl" from a good family would want to help them. Why in the fuck would I care. Many like The Rev. here are still ( in thier minds) rightiously pissed.

I am not entirely white. I am Cherokee. I am one of the many groups of people the world over who have been killed, enslaved, changed, moved off thier lands, forcabily converted to another religion alien to our own. You name it. The world over is full of people who have been shit on. Most look back at thier histories and say ya know.. that was fucked.. lets get our shit together and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. There are some though that hold onto that hatred of being the ones who got shit on. ( look at the middle east) The hatred still burns in them centuries later. It is absurd. They usualy preach thier hatred and list thier wrongs through spiritual leaders. ( black churches here, and thier churches, synagogues and mosques there)

I see my realitives who are still on the rez. and I can understand being upset and angry. But I never condone hatred.

I was totaly unimpressed by Obama's speech. I can understand not denouncing a kinda cooky friend.. but if I was part of a spiritual community that included a minster who held such strong beliefs that were so vastly different to mine I would not be part of that congregation. I would not be married by that pastor, nor have my child baptized by that person.

I do not know how many of you are church goers.. but one does not go to nor stay in a church when the pastor's beliefs are vastly different to your own. You simply do not stay and support those ideas. You do not stay and tithe giving your money to further those ideas.

I can assure you after going to church for 20 years he know what was on his pastors mind.. and being a close friend of this pastor.. he really knew. I have known my minister since really just Nov. of last year and I can tell you most of his views.

I think it is deplorable to say he had no idea. I think it is deplorable to say they have every right to be violent and act as his pastor has.

Hate, and anger solves nothing. Going out there and being better people and working in the community and doing something about inequality is what works and matters. If Obama was half the man he thought he was.. and the US wished he was.. he would have helped his pastor, and the congregation see that. If he can not turn the tide of one angry congregation how in the hell can he do it for a whole nation? How can he stand up for any one?

Gwyn

Oh Nigggahh Pleeeez!

First off, What angry congregation? Secondly you don't look like an Indian...You can pass. So don't get all on your high horse for you haven't experienced shit first hand.

Hate and Anger have actually solved much in this country..I believe it spearheaded a revolutiuon...I believe it cleared the plains of your relatives. I believe it led to the start of a war in Iraq.

If you listen to the full of Rev Wright's speech you will see it is not quite as inflamatory as perceived. I don't think his pastor needed much help...His remarks were not that far off the mark.

People who find any of this distasteful were really not considering Obama as a viable contender from the get...None of this is a concern of mine....Hillary is the only hurdle. Once that obstacle is cleared it will be all downhill catching a 71 year old intelligent design and war loving candidate.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 1:27:10 PM

cloudboy

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I was hoping somebody could say what I was thinking better than I could.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 1:46:50 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Hate and Anger have actually solved much in this country....I believe it led to the start of a war in Iraq.

Iraq hardly qualifies as a solution. More like a problem.

quote:

If you listen to the full of Rev Wright's speech you will see it is not quite as inflamatory as perceived. I don't think his pastor needed much help...His remarks were not that far off the mark.

No, the fire and brimstone is not all there is in the sermon. However, even "in context", Wright is still issuing an apologetic for terrorism against the United States.

That is very wide of the mark.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 4:22:10 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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I am sorry, but Gwyn is right. I have been reading this thread for a few days now, and I notice that many of the people who are dismissing the importance of this influence, for the most part, are not regular church goers and are not long terms members of a religious community (whatever that community might be). I apologize to any that may be, but My overall sense here is that there is a pervasive attitude that the church (depending on the candidate's involvement with that church) in the life of a presidential candidate is not that big of a deal. I am here to tell you that it is
The influence, especially over a 20 year period, coupled with the large donations to this church and the admission of an additional personal relationship with his pastor, should be serious food for thought.
And to the poster, (I am not going to look back and see who it was) who states that Christian churches are preaching hatred towards gays...I have to tell you that you are dead wrong on that also. There are always going to be some off the wall radical churches, and they are going to get the press... color of the congregation does not matter. I have never sat in a Christian church anywhere that preaches such hatred and if I heard it, I would be walking out the door. It is at direct odds with the basic tenets of Christianity.
Historical injustices? How many more times am I going to read that one? Historical refers to history and history refers to the past. So get over it and move on. Continually bringing it up (thank you so much fourth estate!) is what keeps the divide in place. Continually pointing to that as some sort of excuse for not being able to or refusing to become a part of every day society is 90% of the problem. I have to agree with celticlord:

quote:

Dismissing black racism because of historical injustice is counterproductive. Racism is wrong regardless of who's speaking.

Obama, if he does disagree with these "opinions", should have either been trying to change it from within to a more reasonable and united (all people regardless of race) stance, rather than donating to, and supporting with his consistent presence, a cause that continues to divide and blame a certain segment of society for it's ills, or he should have left that church and found one more in line with his true leanings. And it should have been done years ago.
Poltical expediency at its finest, IMO.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 3/22/2008 4:24:01 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 5:40:26 PM

cloudboy

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I was thinking of this thread while reading a book review of THE RACE CARD by Richard Thompson.

The reviewer writes, "Ford, a professor of law at Stanford, argues that ubiquitous accusations of discrimination in the United States frequently distract from serious racial injustices...."

I do not agree with the POSTERS herein who contend that all racism is "bad," and who thereafter try to attach the chain of "racism" to Obama.

I prefer instead to make a distinction. Some racism is offensive; namely the Archie Bunker in his living room, the preacher in one sermon, Geraldine Ferraro on national TV, or the random individual who displays a racist outlook.

Other forms of racism represent serious injustices: namely slavery, THE FINAL SOLUTION, lynchings, segregation, ethnic cleansing, attributing a racist profile to criminal behavior & poverty, and to demonize one's opponents in times of war.

Let's not take our eye off the ball people. Obama IN NO WAY REPRESENTS the "serious injustices" of racism, and I don't think one could make the case against his Pastor here either.

What's really going on is thin skinned people taking offense --- at a situation Obama's poltical opponents are playing up --- to neutralize Obama's strength as a candidate who has set forth the goal of better unifying the American nation after this divisive era of the Bush Administration.

We white people complaining of "racism" really need to get over ourselves, b/c we haven't been the victims of it on "the social injustices" side of that divide. (Especially here in the USA.) Instead, in my view, we should treat this subject with great care and great humility. We do offense to history, political discussions, and the victims of racism when we try to equate our own petty offenses with real, damaging social injustices.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 6:05:56 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I prefer instead to make a distinction. Some racism is offensive; namely the Archie Bunker in his living room, the preacher in one sermon, Geraldine Ferraro on national TV, or the random individual who displays a racist outlook.

Other forms of racism represent serious injustices: namely slavery, THE FINAL SOLUTION, lynchings, segregation, ethnic cleansing, attributing a racist profile to criminal behavior & poverty, and to demonize one's opponents in times of war.

The one begets the other. The casual bigotry of an Archie Bunker makes the intense bigotry of ethnic cleansing less than shocking.

Bigotry of any kind at any level should be opposed. Hatred is wrong, whether the hater is Archie or Adolf.

quote:

Instead, in my view, we should treat this subject with great care and great humility.

In my view we should excoriate and exorcise racists regardless of the the color of their skin.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 3/22/2008 6:07:27 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 6:34:20 PM

cloudboy

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I respectfully disagree: equating "offensive views" with "actual harms" blurs a very meaningful distinction.

You are trying to argue those with criminal thoughts or language --- should be equated with those who actually perpetrate real crimes.

Although there is some connection between a person who says, "I'm gonna bash your head in," and a person who does beat a person to death --- there's a logical reason we put one behind bars and maybe accuse the other of "assault."

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