RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 11:36:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Outrage suggests that you find racism the most heinous crime imaginable.  If you have that sentiment in common with your fellow Americans, why is there so much racism in your society?  Outrage is justified if someone challenges every racist he encounters and still wants to do more, when I suspect most white Americans are nowhere near so concerned about it.

Outrage suggests that I don't like being called racist.  Outrage suggests that I reject the notion that racist thinking can be altered by racial rhetoric.

Outrage is justified if a man is not a racist and is called one.

quote:


Come on celtic, we're talking about a pastor trying to keep his congregation awake with a little theatricality.  I'm not a religious person but if I know this is part of the play, you ought to too.  Like Wright, and you, the kids in that church will go on to leave school, join the Marines and then adopt calm, productive lives in suburbs bounded by white picket fences and indignance at impropriety.  It's not some satanic malediction aimed at fermenting hatred but a reminder of teh challenges they face.

"God damn America" is a malediction.  Moreover, in the vocabulary of Christianity, it is the worst malediction.  That is what it is to say "God damn".

Wright is not a high school athletics coach whipping up fervor before a big game.  He is preaching to his church--and he is preaching a curse upon America.  "God damn America" is cursing America.  There is not a second interpretation for that phrase.

quote:


All fair assumptions, however as Obama has made abundantly clear, it's not the letter of the sermon but the spirit of it that should concern you.  If racism offends you so much, why not a single thought for how you are going to bridge the gap between yourself and your compatriots?  How does "outrage" help, exactly?


Given that those same sermons accuse the government of selling drugs to black people, as well as creating the AIDS epidemic, I fail to see where the spirit is vastly different from the letter.

Moreover, I bridge that gap every day in my personal and professional life.  When I said I am not a racist I mean exactly that.  I react to people not based on the color of their skin but on what they do, and what they say.  That is how I live my life.  You do not know me, so you will have to take me at my word.

As I have stated elsewhere, I would be less troubled by Wright's racist rhetoric were he not Obama's longtime spiritual teacher, and were Obama not running for high office.  If you think my outrage is misplaced because I do not want a man who has blithely sat and listened to that manner of venom for 20 years occupying the Oval Office, then you are sadly mistaken.  My outrage is placed exactly where it belongs. 

quote:


You're really warming to your theme now.  Are you enjoying your outrage?  Just a little bit?  The highlighted part is an exaggeration and you know it.  Like I said elsewhere, if main street America instead of indignantly stomping their feet, grasped the nettle and accepted that there are massive divisions there, they would earn enormous respect - both at home and overseas.  (It's the same story here, btw). 

Where is Wright's apology?  Where is Wright's acknowledgement that his statements were the theatricality your apology here makes them out to be?  Not only do I not know that it was an exaggeration, the available extant evidence indicates that it is anything but exaggeration.  Wright's hate-filled sermons are a pattern of several years' worth of preaching.  This is not one poorly chosen phrase, but several, uttered time and again.  When Wright's other sermons spread vicious rumors and lies about the US government selling drugs to black people, and spreading AIDS, how exactly am I exaggerating?  When Obama's wife states that his campaign for the Presidency was the first time she felt proud of this country, how exactly am I exaggerating?





celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 11:41:34 AM)

quote:

Which is exactly my feeling. It is better to be a member of the permanent opposition.


On that point, you and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree.




Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 12:10:43 PM)

No. What you're trying to do is justify bad behavior. Trying to nullify it, trying to change the subject.

It isn't hypocrisy if it's a different topic altogether anyway. Say McCain were going to a racist church, and say I defended McCain's doing that - then you could realistically accuse me of hypocrisy for my objecting to Obama's choice of Church over the last twenty years. But what you're doing, bringing up Falwell and Roberts, that's not pointing out hypocrisy. That's obfuscating.

What do Falwell and Roberts have to do with racism? Which of them is running for president, and who here is supporting that candidacy. No one!

Your cries of 'hypocrisy' fall flat.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And pointing out the hypocrisy of it helps to show the outrage to be a lie.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 12:49:26 PM)

~ Fast Reply ~
 
The debate regarding these comments served another good purpose; it exposed the feet of clay of the Senator Obama candidacy. It's over.

Rationalizations by the apologists and the self loathing can't save the formulated image of inclusiveness. Now that he is discounting disagreement by accepting that it is coming from those, like his grandmother - "typically white"; the polarization is complete. Support the belief, perpetuate the situation, or make sure a person with such a prejudicial outlook doesn't become President. Someone asked previously how to end prejudice? I'd suggest that the way NOT to end it would be to replace one prejudicial program with another. Another way would be to make sure someone with such ingrained prejudice doesn't get in a position of power.

In one of his three books "Dreams from My Father", (anyone else read any?) his given reason for joining the Trinity Church was to help "organize" the community. He also states that he joined the church for political reasons according to his memoirs. He was fully involved, with good intent and reason. He wanted to establish his own "black identity". The reason he gave was because he lived and was raised by his white grandparents. His "deep roots" in the Black community begin and end at the Trinity Church. Stipulating that all the preaching of Reverend Wright are factually based, as many have represented on this thread, wouldn't you then have a problem with the integrity of Senator Obama's distancing stance? Where is his strength of conviction? So quick to abandon a man and who represented so much to him based upon his autobiography should raise questions about how reliable he will be with his other commitments when they come under scrutiny. The situation, and his current rhetoric, represents the man's character. Say what you will of casual contact with the right wing religious wackos; none of them have 20 years worth of participating, contributing member history with either of the other remaining candidates.

The problem is character and image was all he had going into the campaign. No experience, no 'success' political or in business. He began a campaign under the banner of being the first "post racial candidate". No racial inferences. Now he assumes there are "typical Whites", and seems to be running a race based campaign. His other campaign buzz-word? Change? What of that? Where is the plan behind the banner cry of change?

Seeing a breach of integrity regarding these other matters should cause one to take a closer look at that appeal too. What is his changing approach to education? New ideas, such as vouchers or teacher accountability? No - More Money! Is that new? In fact looking closer the Senator's solution to every "change" he supports is more money, more taxes, more bureaucracy. Is that new? Is that change?

Pastor Wright was a flash point to expose a naked potential emperor. But again, that's just the opinion of a "typical White person".

The best case for the DNC would be if both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama surrendered their delegates and create an open convention. Neither will reach the necessary number anyway. This tactic will defuse the potential problem of a 'super-delegate' voter count win for Senator Clinton, and a raw number delegate count, win for Senator Obama. The outcome of that battle won't be pretty and leave a lot of November voters feeling disenfranchised.

Maybe someone will come out of it who will facilitate change and can put back together a plurality. I wish I could point to someone who fills that bill, but maybe under an open convention someone will rise to the occasion as Senator Obama did during the last convention. Otherwise, the corporate candidate will win in a cake walk.




RealityLicks -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 12:59:35 PM)

cl -

You would have to have led a remarkably sheltered life not to be aware of the sense of injustice felt by black America.  To react with "outrage" here is not credible.  Outrage? On uncovering some new belief - maybe - but not on simply hearing repeated ideas which have circulated freely in popular and political culture for decades. 

I don't read genuine outrage in the florid posts decrying Obama.  Perhaps a measure of resentment that this African American arriviste* to whom life has been pretty good isn't some biddable automaton. It totally shirks responsibility when everyone claims - as they do - that racism is nothing to do with them.  Ever heard, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"?  In other words, ignoring a social evil rather than combatting it does not entitle you to "outrage" when as a group you are criticised.  It entitles you to a share of the collective blame.

I don't see any outrage, just a large measure of sanctimony.





(*to you-know-who, I know, I know...)




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 2:11:17 PM)

quote:


You would have to have led a remarkably sheltered life not to be aware of the sense of injustice felt by black America. To react with "outrage" here is not credible. Outrage? On uncovering some new belief - maybe - but not on simply hearing repeated ideas which have circulated freely in popular and political culture for decades.


Outrage is not credible?  To be told time and again that people are entitled to speak ill of me because of a difference in skin color is not cause for outrage?  To be told that I "owe" black people for acts I never committed (for the record, all the slaves I have ever owned have been white women) is not cause for outrage?

Outrage is the right reaction because the ideas have been repeated so often, and for so long. 

When one speaks of "black America", you dip your pen in the same poisoned inkwell from which flows the hatred and bigotry of the David Dukes and Tom Metzgers of the world.  When one speaks of the "black experience" one permanently places a wall between ethnic communities within this country.  When politicians such as Obama and preachers such as Wright devote whole speeches to describing race first and nationality second, they alienate the all those of differing race.

For all the lofty words and rhetoric, until men like Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright acknowledge the racism that lurks within their hearts, a credible movement of change away from such hatred and bigotry is impossible.  I do not hate; I refuse to accept being hated.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 2:19:56 PM)

quote:

In other words, ignoring a social evil rather than combatting it does not entitle you to "outrage" when as a group you are criticised. It entitles you to a share of the collective blame.


I have no share in the sins of others.  What I do I do alone.  The glory and the guilt of my deeds is mine and mine alone.  Others will answer for their deeds as I answer for mine--alone.

That is the unalterable order of the world. 




Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 3:24:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

cl -

You would have to have led a remarkably sheltered life not to be aware of the sense of injustice felt by black America. 



The flip side to that? White America this. White America that. I'm a criminal because I'm white. I deserve to get the shit beat out of me for breaking down in the wrong neighborhood for having money and being white - after all, the black preacher says so.

I don't accept that. Why should I? Where is the healing. Why does the black pastor preach hate, and why do you keep asking for outrage. That's not me. I don't "get" outrage. It does no good. I'm calm, I'm cool, and I'm collected even under fire. What I do get is judging a man by his deeds as opposed to the color of his skin. The black pastor preaches that rich whites cause all the problems - besides being racist, he preaches that thou shalt covet thy neighbors wealth... and he seems to preach revenge.

What kind of damn church is that anyway. You know, I'm not Christian, but I've read the bible many times and I've studied the bible with people of several different faiths, and I've never heard so much hatred before, from anyone as this pastor of Obama's. The only thing I can compare it with is the Ku Klux Klan. Seriously.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 4:02:39 PM)

Sanity, to keep the discussion clear, I do believe his focus on "outrage" is a reaction to my use of the word in post 291.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 8:42:14 PM)

Ya beat me to it, Ken, in post 292. I was going to go looking for those quotes from Foulwell and Robotson blaming gays and feminists and lesbians and liberals for 9/11. I don't remember hearing a fucking peep out of the Limbaughs and Hannitys and those other scumbag rightards. And now they are pissing themselves over some actual truths spoken by a black preacher. Fuck them.




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 8:45:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

You would have to have led a remarkably sheltered life not to be aware of the sense of injustice felt by black America.


Personally, I'm getting tired of angry black men. I've tried to understand, but it doesn't work for me. I'm not saying that I can know what it's like to stand in a black man's shoes. But we're both human beings, and in a lot of ways we really aren't so different.
 
When I try to imagine about how it would feel to be a slave, or even a child descended from slaves, I can't make a go of it. Something inside me says, "Listen asshole, and understand me clearly. We were never anybody's fucking 'slaves'. We were captive free men with guns at our heads."
 
Is that a distinction without a difference? On a psychological level, it seems to me to mean everything. Promoting black identification and solidarity with this whole slavery whinge strikes me as mind-numbingly destructive. It does a dis-service to the memory of the black men and women who came before, and to their nature as a people.
 
I'd be willing to bet that a black man in those days knew the difference.
 
K.
 




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 8:56:11 PM)

Well, Kirata, does this work for you?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E5DD123AF931A25751C1A9649C8B63




cloudboy -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 10:22:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

running a race based campaign.


He hasn't been doing that at all, its others who keep introducing race as an issue where Obama is concerned.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 10:57:17 PM)

Fox News Anchors fed up with network's (Murdoch's) Obama-bashing: Brian Kilmeade walks off set.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mayhem-at-fox-news-ancho_n_92743.html




DomKen -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 11:52:56 PM)

Wallace still has a spine? Who would have believed that a week ago. I wonder if Kilmeade will ever get back on the air at FNC?




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/22/2008 12:06:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Wallace still has a spine? Who would have believed that a week ago. I wonder if Kilmeade will ever get back on the air at FNC?
Amazing, isn't it? If the frontmen at Faux are breaking ranks, maybe some Americans will unserstand that they have been completely manipulated by Murdoch, Limbaugh, Coulter, Drudge, and the rest of the <cough> liberal <cough hack> media. I seriously doubt the White racist country club "conservatives" will admit that they have been Goebbeled, but the MOR Nascar Gomers who vote on such non-issues as gun-control or gay marriage might get a clue. Then again, anyone who thinks driving in a circle is a sport...[8D]




Kirata -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/22/2008 12:21:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Well, Kirata, does this work for you?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E5DD123AF931A25751C1A9649C8B63

It is always a mistake to attribute malice to what may simply be circumstances. It is possible that the practice arises from an unfortunate reality. Processing applications and conducting interviews takes time and costs money. To select applicants from a demographic that experience has shown more likely to satisfy the company's need for qualified employees with the minimal allocation of search resources is simple business sense. It reflects the company's fiduciary responsibility to its investors, not "racism".
 
But okay, let's go with the worst. Every group that has made a life in these United States was perceived as different at first; and not just perceived to be, they were; different cultures, different values, different languages. They were neither known nor trusted; they were discriminated against; and as soon as one of their number committed a crime, they were seen as a problem. But they all had the motivation, perseverance, and sweat it takes to stand together and become a proud part of this country.
 
There are always reasons why you can't succeed at something. That's not a cliche. I mean it very sincerely. It's absolutely true. Human history is an on-going exhibit of things once believed to be impossible by experts. But you surely won't succeed if you think you can't. We've all known one of those people who always has a tale of woe to tell and needs money. Let's not make that the Black Identity.
 
Furthermore, blaming whites as a class is particularly offensive. It was a bunch of those white folks who outlawed slavery in this country, and poured buckets of their blood into the earth to make it stick. No thanks are necessary, but you could stand to lighten up a bit there.
 
K.
 




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/22/2008 12:22:16 AM)

Well, I'll be damned if I can find my post wherein I made a really long quote, but here is the link for it, from Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/ross03192008.html




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/22/2008 3:53:04 AM)

General reply: Ignore if you like...

I'm completely and totally tired of all this shit from both directions. I've now looked for a half an hour about mr. wright. You know what I found, a bunch of opinions, some I think are right on the mark some I think borderline on insane, some I think are harmonious in nature, and some that are divisive. But you know what at least the guy is talking about what he believes in honest terms. So with Wright I don't really have a problem at least he's being honest in his views. He can believe what he wants, and I agree with some, and not others.

My problem here is that some, who are defending this guy have condemned others on much less "evidence". And guess what I'm not condemning this guy either. I think he's off base on some things that I've seen, so far. Who knows, but it's quite sad that most of the quick gun defenders are quick gun offenders as soon as the situation is directly reversed, and vice versa.

My only real concern with Obama is, he's speaking as if in twenty years he didn't know this about Wright. I would care less if he just admitted that Wright held some views that he disagreed with, than saying he never heard them. Yeah. I think that will ultimately destroy him. It brings up the worst memories of a not so distant charismatic president lying well, and people will recoil from that so quickly it'll seem he never was in the race for the presidency(if proven).

And who cares about "typical white woman", and you know what I don't care if someone says "typical black woman" either given the context. Fucking people need to grow up, and stop being whiny bitches.  I mean seriously "typical white woman" WHO CARES. It was a slip of the tongue, mildly poorly chosen words which most of the times, these things are, but rarely do people give anybody the benefit of the doubt. He didn't call her a "dumb white cunt", or a "red neck", or anything.

I'm so ashamed of this countries PC frenzy really, it is just pathetic, everyone looking for everyone to just slip in there wording, and pounce.

It's completely pathetic. It's enlightening though seeing the new converts to tolerance for slips of the tongue come out so fast and those taking up the banner of racism so fast on the other side.

Pathological hypocrites I now believe compose about 1/2 of the population, which means we are so perpetually fucked.







Level -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/22/2008 6:05:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Fox News Anchors fed up with network's (Murdoch's) Obama-bashing: Brian Kilmeade walks off set.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mayhem-at-fox-news-ancho_n_92743.html


Vids: Kilmeade leaving the set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLa6OoM5XHk

Chris Wallace: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-E0-xsOfEo&feature=related




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