RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 6:01:04 PM)

What Is the Constitutional Status of Affirmative Action?

No, thompson, equal access and equal opportunity are not affirmative action.  Affirmative action (also known as "positive discrimination" outside the US--an oxymoron if ever there was one) entails preferential treatment in hiring and education for reasons other than merit.

Affirmative action is in theory and in practice every bit as racist as the Jim Crow laws, and all the pious pontificating about correcting "past" discrimination will not alter that fact.

Racial preference--regardless of reason--is socially unjust and morally wrong.



thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 7:03:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

What Is the Constitutional Status of Affirmative Action?

No, thompson, equal access and equal opportunity are not affirmative action.  Affirmative action (also known as "positive discrimination" outside the US--an oxymoron if ever there was one) entails preferential treatment in hiring and education for reasons other than merit.

If two people are equally qualified by merit for the same position how would you suggest the choice be made if one is white and the other is not?
This is from the link you provided.
The current state of the law suggests that an affirmative action program will survive strict scrutiny if it is tied to the original purpose of such programs: remedying proven, not speculative, past or present discrimination. Conversely, racial diversity, while a laudable goal, will have to be achieved by means other affirmative action.



Affirmative action is in theory and in practice every bit as racist as the Jim Crow laws, and all the pious pontificating about correcting "past" discrimination will not alter that fact.
Perhaps you missed my post 277 it gives the definition of "Jim Crow".  I would be interested in seeing your point by point equivalency.
 
Racial preference--regardless of reason--is socially unjust and morally wrong.

You forgot to mention how racial preference is wrong and the preference you get on a civil service exam because of your military service is different.  Prior military service presumes the same "merit" as prior discrimination.
It has been almost a hundred and fifty years since the civil war.
It has been almost sixty years since Brown v Board of Education.
It has been forty years since the "Civil Rights Act".
How much has actually changed?
If you had the power how would you end discrimination?
How would you guarantee equal access and equal opportunity for all?



 



luckydog1 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 8:20:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

lucky:
I am deeply concerned that others may think I lack the ability to think logically or to comprehend what is presented to me.
I will try to be more diligent in the future.
thompson


Or you could simply back up your claims, take a lot less time.  You did waste quite a few electrons and associated pollution to demonstrate that you can not back up your claim.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 9:07:20 PM)

quote:

If two people are equally qualified by merit for the same position how would you suggest the choice be made if one is white and the other is not?


The guy doing the hiring does what leaders do....makes a decision and deals with the consequences.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 11:03:31 PM)

Getting back to your question, blushes, well, we DON'T have to treat some people differently than others. In an ideal society, wherein surface traits such as skin color, ethnic identity, religion, sex (yes, I know sex is a fundamental difference; it is also an instant identifier, and one of the ways in which people discriminate) are irrelevant, it would be unnecessary. However, we do not live in such a society.

I'm going to use the word "traitism" instead of "racism", since it is accurate.

So how should we try and achieve such a society? Ask people nicely to not discriminate? I don't think that has ever worked. Pass laws against traitism? Well, we have those. Quite a few. Somehow, some people are able to circumvent those laws. Google "redlining". Credit scoring is the new redlining. Those laws aren't as effective as they could be, if people supported their necessity.

So, what other methods are available to help "level the playing field"? (really dislike that metaphor) Maybe programs to help the kids who are the indirect (or even direct) victims of traitism have some good nutrition, so they can develop normally and learn more in school. Maybe some assistance with daycare so mothers can hold down productive jobs and get some additional education. Maybe some mortgage assistance to help offset the dispicable practice of redlining. maybe some tuition assistance so poor kids can get into college. Maybe some guidelines for hiring to help offset the "good old boys' network". (Oh, it's real, it exists)  Maybe some penalties with teeth in them for discrimination. Maybe ending the corrupt practice of "racial profiling" so cops and lawyers aren't filling the jails with minorities.

If people were going to do the right thing and actually follow the Golden Rule (like their religions tell them to; the vast majority, anyway), traitism would be almost gone. But people don't do the right thing (collectively); they either need to be forced to, or they need to be forced to accept some form of affirmative action.

That's how I see things. I grew up in a Traitist house with traitist neighbors and relatives. I changed. I came to understand that I have an unearned advantage based on nothing more than the amount of pigment I have in my skin. I came to understand that is wrong. It's not possible for me to walk in, say, my buddy Randall's or Domiguy's shoes, but I can sure as hell try. I owe them that simply because they are fellow Humans, and because they are still being discriminated against in ways I can't even begin to see.

That's how I see things.



NorthernGent -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/20/2008 11:41:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So why is it that when Obama belongs to a church where a pastor screams about hate and anger towards whites.....the media gives him a free pass?



A clip of his speech was aired on English tele.

From what I can gather, he was talking about "RICH white men".

Let's face it, he's spot on with regard to rich men and their military adventures.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 1:12:59 AM)

This entire post is a quote from someone on another board whose name I do not know. Just want you all to know it isn't mine. he's offline now but I'll clear it with him tomorrow.

Well, turns out the Trinity United church of Christ decided to fight back against Fox news et al but releasing long segments of Wright's sermons so people can see his comments in context. You know, we liberals care about context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ < On the subject of 9/11.
Turns out that Wright's remark about 'chickens coming home to roost' was actually quoting (white) former ambassador to Iraq Edward Peck, who was speaking on...Fox News. And the whole sermon is about self-examination and not allowing oneself to get carried away by the desire for revenge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw&feature=user < 'God Damn America'
Wright talks about the constancy and eternal love of God vs. the fickleness of earthly governments in a historical and international context, while praising the many strides that the US has taken towards racial equality but also critiquing its failings (and not just in relation to the black community).
There's several other videos there. They're all about 5-10 minutes long, and considerably more nuanced and thoughtful than the clips endlessly replayed on the news would lead you to believe - even I was quite surprised.
Not only did Fox (and CNN and the other channels - this is a general media issue) fail to report the content of the sermons in an accurate fashion, but in the case of the first video it seems they deliberately avoided informing the public that Wright was picking up remarks uttered by a former ambassador on Fox News. I haven't found the transcript of that interview yet (will look tomorrow), but here's one from CNN's Crossfire on Act 11, 2001 that leaves no doubt about what Peck's opinions were and strong reinforces Wright's credibility in attributing the remarks to him: http://www.counterpunch.org/peck1.html
We've all experienced the annoyance and frustration of seeing our words on this forum taken out of their context and twisted into a different meaning, to the point that we have a forum rule about it.
I suggest that if you are interested in this political issue, you owe it to yourself to take a few minutes and see these clips in their correct context, and ask yourself honestly whether Wright is preaching a message of hate or whether this whole story has been a hit job on the electorate by a media which is making fat money from sensationalizing the election campaign as much as possible. Frankly, I think they've deliberately duped their viewers.



RealityLicks -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 2:53:35 AM)

I watched the entire speech this week and note Clinton's poll lead this morning.  I'm surprised to see that several of the points still under debate here were covered quite comprehensively by Obama.  If the nay-sayers were disputing his answers, I'd understand but that isn't the case. 

It should be plain to anyone that there is a fairly wideheld belief among many black people and some whites that white racism is endemic - to take the core of the issue and avoid getting bogged down in the particular.  It is on this point that Obama differs from Rev. Wright. Obama believes, as most of you do, that that is a very partial picture of race in America.  He believes that wrongs were committed in the past and that some persist but that there has been a change in your society.  He describes it as a "generational difference" between himself and Rev. Wright (although that bears scrutiny.) 

In any case, it's hugely ironic that while Obama speaks in favour of whites to radical black America, whites believe he should have no dialogue with them at all.  Presumably he should be some de-racinated Episcopalian like Rice?  Rev Wright was hardly ever likely to be consulted on the great matters of state, anyway.  So why the huge row about comments from a sermon, not the Gospel? Where does all this fear come from?  Because if anything proves Wright right, it's this over-reaction.



Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 3:45:18 AM)

Why are rich brown, black or yellow men okay by comparison? Let's put this shoe on the other foot. What if McCain's church blamed all of our ills on poor blacks. Preached fire and brimstone at them. Say it were true that some problems were caused by poor blacks... would such sermons be unremarkable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So why is it that when Obama belongs to a church where a pastor screams about hate and anger towards whites.....the media gives him a free pass?



A clip of his speech was aired on English tele.

From what I can gather, he was talking about "RICH white men".

Let's face it, he's spot on with regard to rich men and their military adventures.





SubRefuge -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 3:55:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
If you had the power how would you end discrimination?
How would you guarantee equal access and equal opportunity for all?
 

Education, maybe?  Mandatory college would be an easier sentence than 20-life for murder.
 



celticlord2112 -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 6:16:15 AM)

quote:

So why the huge row about comments from a sermon, not the Gospel? Where does all this fear come from?


It's not fear.  It's outrage.  I am no saint, but neither am I a racist. 

A sermon is a teaching, a moral lesson from pastor to parishoner.  Wright's teaching to Obama seems rather explicit.  America, as a whole, should literally go to Hell.  That is the significance of "God damn America."--it is a curse leveled by Wright on the length and breadth of this nation, and upon each and every person who calls themselves "American."

Public reaction from other parishioner's at Trinity Church indicates a lack of even surprise at this teaching.  Public reaction indicates the church membership by and large agrees with Wright.  From this one has to conclude that such teachings are not uncommon for Wright.  The curse within this one teaching thus taints all of Wright's teachings

These are the spiritual teachings Obama has received for 20 years.  These are the teachings Obama, even in his eloquent speech earlier this week, refused to reject.  This is the spiritual teacher Obama embraced in that speech as "family".

Obama is not merely a public figure looking to jumpstart a new dialogue on race and racism in America.  He is a man seeking to be President, to lead America.  As one of the Americans Obama desires to lead, I reject the leadership of one who has been taught for 20 years that I belong in Hell.  Obama is not a suitable candidate for President--for all his eloquence, his choice of spiritual teacher shows his character unfit to occupy the Oval Office.



DomKen -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 6:54:28 AM)

Here is what Wright actually said:
quote:

The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people, God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.
The bible certainly condemns killing the innocent.
The bible certainly condemns mistreating the poor etc.
The bible certainly condemns setting anything above god.
 
So while you can argue that Wright's views on the issue are shocking, no more outrageous than a choir singing "Should God Bless America?" in front of GOP candidates IMO, they are consistent with the bible and as a pastor isn't he supposed to be consistent with the bible?
 
If the case is only about a pastor saying god should curse america where was the outrage on the right when these things were said:
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" -on 9/11
 
"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
 
"We have a court that has essentially stuck its finger in God's eye and said we're going to legislate you out of the schools. We're going to take your commandments from off the courthouse steps in various states. We're not going to let little children read the commandments of God. We're not going to let the Bible be read, no prayer in our schools. We have insulted God at the highest levels of our government. And then we say, "Why does this happen?"
    Well, why it's happening is that God Almighty is lifting his protection from us." - on why 9/11 happened.

I think I smell more right wing hypocrisy.



Sanity -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:06:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Here is what Wright actually said:
quote:

The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people, God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.


What? The government gives them drugs???

Whatever happened to the war ON drugs. Hell, the government goes to great lengths to stop drugs from getting to the street from every source, to the point that many on the Left want drug enforcement to stop, and to surrender, and to let drugs flood the streets.

Does Obama's pastor want a war on drugs, or no?

quote:


The bible certainly condemns killing the innocent.
The bible certainly condemns mistreating the poor etc.
The bible certainly condemns setting anything above god.
 
So while you can argue that Wright's views on the issue are shocking, no more outrageous than a choir singing "Should God Bless America?" in front of GOP candidates IMO, they are consistent with the bible and as a pastor isn't he supposed to be consistent with the bible?
 
If the case is only about a pastor saying god should curse america where was the outrage on the right when these things were said:
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" -on 9/11
 
"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
 
"We have a court that has essentially stuck its finger in God's eye and said we're going to legislate you out of the schools. We're going to take your commandments from off the courthouse steps in various states. We're not going to let little children read the commandments of God. We're not going to let the Bible be read, no prayer in our schools. We have insulted God at the highest levels of our government. And then we say, "Why does this happen?"
Well, why it's happening is that God Almighty is lifting his protection from us." - on why 9/11 happened.

I think I smell more right wing hypocrisy.


Who are you quoting. Who sits through that garbage and spew? I certainly don't. Especially not every Sunday for twenty fucking years!!!

I seriously doubt you can establish that McCain did either.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:08:37 AM)

quote:

 think I smell more right wing hypocrisy.



Yeah you are probably correct. As Senator Obama references his grandmother; its just "typical white person" stuff.



meatcleaver -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:13:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Reply ~
 
Admittedly it wasn't a thought I had but a friend of mine pointed out that the racial aspect of this debate is misplacing the focus. Regardless of the source, regardless of race; shouldn't a viable Presidential candidate have to explain the words coming from his closest trusted advisers? Won't these people be who he trusts for advise after his election? President Clinton said he confided with his wife.

Prior to the Reverend Wright issue Senator Obama had to address his wife identifying his campaign as the ONLY time she's been proud of the US. He lived through that ham handed explanation. Time will tell if he gets through this one.

Meanwhile not every Black Pastor has positive thoughts regarding Senator Obama. In line with the equal access laws I think everyone should watch this Harlem, NYC Pastor's perspective on Senator Obama's Presidential campaign: http://youtube.com/watch?v=khuu-RhOBDU 

I hope some will listen to, and appreciate, his views regarding AA/EEO.


I don't understand why it is necessary to like ones country, many people get involved in politics precisely because they don't like their country and want to change it. Obama keeps ranting on about change do there is obviously something he doesn't like about his country.

The reason I have refused to vote myself in the last four or five elections in Britain is because no politician has stood up and said this country is shit and I want to change it and make it better.



thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:15:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

lucky:
I am deeply concerned that others may think I lack the ability to think logically or to comprehend what is presented to me.
I will try to be more diligent in the future.
thompson


Or you could simply back up your claims, take a lot less time.  You did waste quite a few electrons and associated pollution to demonstrate that you can not back up your claim.

lucky:
You keep demanding that I back up my claims...I have not made any claims.
Since you have that bone stuck in your throat lets see what I can do to help you out.
Had you chosen to read "Vaccine A" you would have discovered that all of the science upon which it is based has been "peer reviewed".  Those reviews are contained in the extensive footnoting.
What this book proves is that the U.S. government used not the most reviled portion of its society to run a series of extremely dangerous and unethical medical trials  upon,but rather chose to select for those trials that particular group of its citizens who stand forward and put their lives at risk in the military service of their country.  In so doing tens of thousands of American servicemen and women have suffered horrendous pain many of them have died from these unethical tests.  These test were not voluntary they were mandatory.  If a service man/woman refused to participate they would be court martialed.
So I put it to you...if the government would do this to the first responders to the defense of America is it not conceivable that they might also do it to the most despised of its citizens?
The book also proves that those at the very top of this debacle were the holders of the patents of the elements of the trial or members of the corporations that were making them.
The proof is there for you to read should choose.
thompson
 








DomKen -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:17:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Here is what Wright actually said:
quote:

The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people, God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.


What? The government gives them drugs???

Whatever happened to the war ON drugs. Hell, the government goes to great lengths to stop drugs from getting to the street from every source, to the point that many on the Left want drug enforcement to stop, and to surrender, and to let drugs flood the streets.

Does Obama's pastor want a war on drugs, or no?

Wright is expressing a common belief amongst the black community that the US government is/was involved in the cocaine/crack trade.

quote:

quote:


The bible certainly condemns killing the innocent.
The bible certainly condemns mistreating the poor etc.
The bible certainly condemns setting anything above god.
 
So while you can argue that Wright's views on the issue are shocking, no more outrageous than a choir singing "Should God Bless America?" in front of GOP candidates IMO, they are consistent with the bible and as a pastor isn't he supposed to be consistent with the bible?
 
If the case is only about a pastor saying god should curse america where was the outrage on the right when these things were said:
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" -on 9/11
 
"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
 
"We have a court that has essentially stuck its finger in God's eye and said we're going to legislate you out of the schools. We're going to take your commandments from off the courthouse steps in various states. We're not going to let little children read the commandments of God. We're not going to let the Bible be read, no prayer in our schools. We have insulted God at the highest levels of our government. And then we say, "Why does this happen?"
Well, why it's happening is that God Almighty is lifting his protection from us." - on why 9/11 happened.

I think I smell more right wing hypocrisy.


Who are you quoting. Who sits through that garbage and spew? I certainly don't. Especially not every Sunday for twenty fucking years!!!

I seriously doubt you can establish that McCain did either.


The first two quotes are by the Reverend Jerry Falwell and the third is by the Reverend Pat Robertson. So where was the outrage? How is it that those two leaders of the GOP could spew forth this sort of bile and Obama cannot even be associated with a pastor who said roughly the same thing?



caitlyn -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:24:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
If you had the power how would you end discrimination?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a good answer to this question, but do feel that using racially charged rhetoric to discuss racism, probably isn't helpful.
 
I'm willing to give Pastor Wright the benefit of doubt. Perhaps he was just preaching, and was overtaken by the spirit of the moment, and the fervor of the congregation, and spoke a bit out of turn. My understanding is, that he is a very good man and his church does a lot to benefit the poor, of all races. I'm willing to accept that he was really discussing white racists, of which there are many, and really didn't mean to lump an entire race in to one evil group, based on the color of their skin.
 
It would be nice though, to get some clerification from him, and perhaps even a public apology ... and spare us the spin that he has shown in some interviews.



thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:25:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

If two people are equally qualified by merit for the same position how would you suggest the choice be made if one is white and the other is not?


The guy doing the hiring does what leaders do....makes a decision and deals with the consequences.



Without AA what consequences would there be?
You failed to mention if it is the letter of AA that you oppose or the way in which some have applied it.  The following is the last paragraph of the cite you posted.
The current state of the law suggests that an affirmative action program will survive strict scrutiny if it is tied to the original purpose of such programs: remedying proven, not speculative, past or present discrimination. Conversely, racial diversity, while a laudable goal, will have to be achieved by means other affirmative action
 
I did notice that you have chosen not to make a point by point comparison with AA and the posted definition of Jim Crow.
I was part of the group who placed James Meridith in "Old Miss." in 1962.  Would you have been one of those who opposed me?
thompson
 






thompsonx -> RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor (3/21/2008 7:40:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What? The government gives them drugs???


Sanity:
I am sure that they have both newspapers and television in Idaho.
For you to claim ignorance of the CIA and people like Col. Ollie North being involved in smuggling drugs is disingenuous at best.
thompson






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