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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 6:45:25 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I respectfully disagree: equating "offensive views" with "actual harms" blurs a very meaningful distinction.


So it's ok to hate, just as long as all we do is talk?

Sorry, not buying it.  Hate is hate.

quote:

You are trying to argue those with criminal thoughts or language --- should be equated with those who actually perpetrate real crimes.

No, I'm not.  Hatred isn't a crime.  It's just wrong.  We can't outlaw hatred, but we can oppose it.  We should oppose it, whether it is thought, word, or deed.


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 6:47:02 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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Still, cloudboy, too often the punishment for this "assault" does not stop others from taking it the step further and bashing someone's head in.   
It's all wrong, and as long as we keep discussing it, excusing it for whatever reason, and/or keep looking the other way because <insert historical support/excuse for any heinous attitude and action>, it will not stop.
It's time to stop all the political correctness and call it what it is.  No excuses, no special treatment.  That is the only way this will ever go away.
Not that I suppose for one minute that it will ever go away. 

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 7:33:46 PM   
Level


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McCain's pastor on Rev Wright and Obama:

quote:

Yeary was sympathetic as a fellow pastor and said while he did not agree with Wright's comments, all preachers eventually got caught in the trap of their own exuberance.   "All preachers have a tendency to overstate because our passion is so intense. But I thought Obama did a fine job in response. He preserved his friendship with his pastor while disagreeing with him," Yeary said.

"I'm sure John McCain would probably say the same thing about me if he were asked 'So, do you agree with everything your pastor says?"' he added with a laugh.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/usa_politics_mccain_pastor_dc

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 7:41:04 PM   
Sanity


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You don't have a clue Werther or not white people here have been "victims" of racism. I for one have been and I to this day take offense when I see it practiced by anyone.

It's stupidity. It leads to violence. It's the premeditation of violence, senseless violence. You're caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and just because of your color you're followed by an unequal number of angry men. Treated unequally by a black boss in the workplace because of my color, forcing me to quit because I couldn't make any money. I was told stories in my military unit by some of the black soldiers there of what had happened to the last white guy that pissed them off, stories involving a second story window. People trying to make me live in fear because I'm white.

Now I learn that its taught in churches that its okay to hate whitey because he's the one who's to blame for everything.

But I digress. Simply put , don't tell me what I've experienced, because you don't know.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I was thinking of this thread while reading a book review of THE RACE CARD by Richard Thompson.

The reviewer writes, "Ford, a professor of law at Stanford, argues that ubiquitous accusations of discrimination in the United States frequently distract from serious racial injustices...."

I do not agree with the POSTERS herein who contend that all racism is "bad," and who thereafter try to attach the chain of "racism" to Obama.

I prefer instead to make a distinction. Some racism is offensive; namely the Archie Bunker in his living room, the preacher in one sermon, Geraldine Ferraro on national TV, or the random individual who displays a racist outlook.

Other forms of racism represent serious injustices: namely slavery, THE FINAL SOLUTION, lynchings, segregation, ethnic cleansing, attributing a racist profile to criminal behavior & poverty, and to demonize one's opponents in times of war.

Let's not take our eye off the ball people. Obama IN NO WAY REPRESENTS the "serious injustices" of racism, and I don't think one could make the case against his Pastor here either.

What's really going on is thin skinned people taking offense --- at a situation Obama's poltical opponents are playing up --- to neutralize Obama's strength as a candidate who has set forth the goal of better unifying the American nation after this divisive era of the Bush Administration.

We white people complaining of "racism" really need to get over ourselves, b/c we haven't been the victims of it on "the social injustices" side of that divide. (Especially here in the USA.) Instead, in my view, we should treat this subject with great care and great humility. We do offense to history, political discussions, and the victims of racism when we try to equate our own petty offenses with real, damaging social injustices.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/22/2008 8:41:15 PM >


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 8:24:02 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112  The casual bigotry of an Archie Bunker makes the intense bigotry of ethnic cleansing less than shocking.
Maybe to you. A TV sitcom didn't make my horror and outrage and tears at seeing the memorial at Der Haus der Wannsee-Konferenz  "less than shocking". Don't presume to speak for me. I'd be willing to bet that almost all those who are up in arms over a few accurate statements by an American preacher have never seen a Denkmal in Deutschland or Polen or Osterreich. 

quote:

In my view we should excoriate and exorcise racists regardless of the the color of their skin. 
  Since you are so outraged at Traitism, I guess we can expect you to be actively fighting discrimination by whites, richtig?

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:05:34 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Well, Kirata, does this work for you?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F05E5DD123AF931A25751C1A9649C8B63

It is always a mistake to attribute malice to what may simply be circumstances. It is possible that the practice arises from an unfortunate reality. Processing applications and conducting interviews takes time and costs money. To select applicants from a demographic that experience has shown more likely to satisfy the company's need for qualified employees with the minimal allocation of search resources is simple business sense. It reflects the company's fiduciary responsibility to its investors, not "racism".
Um, you did read it, right? SO you got that the same results obtained in both Chicago and Boston, right? And that the resumes were randomized so that no single employer recieved two identical resumes, and that the first names were randomly assigned? You got all that, right?
"Their most alarming finding is that the likelihood of being called for an interview rises sharply with an applicant's credentials -- like experience and honors -- for those with white-sounding names, but much less for those with black-sounding names. A grave concern is that this phenomenon may be damping the incentives for blacks to acquire job skills, producing a self-fulfilling prophecy that perpetuates prejudice and misallocates resources. "
 
Processing applications takes the same amount of time regardless of the names of the applicant.   That the employer is selecting a certain 'demographic" - you know, that's a weasel word; let's call it what it is, RACE (and I dislike that word, too, but for a different reason) - because that employer believes a name can be directly correlated with the applicant's race, is illegal.
Circumstances, my ass.

 
quote:

But okay, let's go with the worst. Every group that has made a life in these United States was perceived as different at first; and not just perceived to be, they were; different cultures, different values, different languages. They were neither known nor trusted; they were discriminated against; and as soon as one of their number committed a crime, they were seen as a problem. But they all had the motivation, perseverance, and sweat it takes to stand together and become a proud part of this country.
Trying to compare a group of people who came to the US chained in holds of slave ships and kept in bondage for over two hundred years, and then legally discriminated against for another hundred years, and now discriminated against illegally for the last 40 years, with people with pink skins who came to the US voluntarily and blended in with the existing ruling class, is dishonest and disingenuous.
 
quote:

Furthermore, blaming whites as a class is particularly offensive. It was a bunch of those white folks who outlawed slavery in this country, and poured buckets of their blood into the earth to make it stick. No thanks are necessary, but you could stand to lighten up a bit there.
Most of whom were drafted to fight the South, who poured buckets of THEIR blood into the ground trying to keep blacks in chains. Sorry, dude, that dog don't hunt. If the truth offends you, too bloody bad.

 

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/22/2008 9:06:34 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:41:23 PM   
giveeverything


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Okay... can white people actually experience racism toward them?  I'm a gonna say no people.  Racism is something that happens because of insitutuional systems that lead one group of people to experience privlidedge over another.  If you are not the group in power you do not have the power to be racist over another.  That doesn't mean you can't be intolerant and biased.  It simply means that the idea of "reverse-racism" is an oxymoron.  To be racist you have to have an entire systems behind you.  Flame me if you want... I could give a shit... I feel like I'm in some alternative universe anyway where people have gone insane.

But... instead of talking about racism... let's talk about white privledge.  What kind of advances do people get because of the color of their skin -- advances they didn't earn, didn't work for, etc.  A really good eassy is by MacIntosh called "Unpacking The Invisible Napsack."  You can not talk about racism without talking about priveledge.  But i'm a commie anyway... sue me.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:42:05 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

McCain's pastor a sharp contrast to Obama's


HOUSTON (Reuters) - John McCain's Phoenix pastor, Dan Yeary, is a folksy patriotic Southern Baptist who opposes abortion and believes homosexuality to be a biblical sin, but says Christians have an obligation to love such sinners.  
<snip>

The 69-year-old Yeary adheres to the Southern Baptist belief that gay marriage and homosexual relations go against Biblical scripture, hot-button issues for many in the United States.

"The Bible is pretty clear about it, in my opinion it specifically calls it a sin. I also am a sinner and you are a sinner. ... Did Jesus Christ love homosexuals? I'm sure he did," Yeary said.

<snip snip>

Yeary was sympathetic as a fellow pastor and said while he did not agree with Wright's comments, all preachers eventually got caught in the trap of their own exuberance.

"All preachers have a tendency to overstate because our passion is so intense. But I thought Obama did a fine job in response. He preserved his friendship with his pastor while disagreeing with him," Yeary said.

(click here to read the full article).




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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:43:57 PM   
cloudboy


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There's really nothing in American history to suggest you've suffered anything on par with American blacks or the American Indian.

Were any of your relatives sold off? Were any of your ancestors lynched for looking at a White woman? Did you have to sit in the back of the Bus? Were you not considered "a person" under the US Constitution?

I live in Baltimore City. I've had my share of challenging race relations here. But, there's no way its ever going to be comparable to real, racial injustice.

The undercurrent of this thread, which is entirely ludicrous, BTW, is that if Barak Obama became US President, this would somehow set back race relations in the USA. That's just a preposterous notion.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/22/2008 10:03:55 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:50:18 PM   
kittinSol


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For what it's worth, I really liked your post :-) . I know what you mean about feeling like everybody's gone mad, but there are a few sane ones left. It's just that the crazy ones make more noise than us :-) .

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:51:07 PM   
Sanity


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What are you suggesting. Are you inferring that for some reason blacks are incapable of gaining positions of power?

Are you saying they have defects disallowing them to rise to positions of power over other people?

Well, you're wrong. That's not been my experience. Blacks are perfectly capable, they can and do achieve anything, any level. I've known black commanding officers, black foremen and business owners, school principals, you name it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

Okay... can white people actually experience racism toward them?  I'm a gonna say no people.  Racism is something that happens because of insitutuional systems that lead one group of people to experience privlidedge over another.  If you are not the group in power you do not have the power to be racist over another.  That doesn't mean you can't be intolerant and biased.  It simply means that the idea of "reverse-racism" is an oxymoron.  To be racist you have to have an entire systems behind you.  Flame me if you want... I could give a shit... I feel like I'm in some alternative universe anyway where people have gone insane.

But... instead of talking about racism... let's talk about white privledge.  What kind of advances do people get because of the color of their skin -- advances they didn't earn, didn't work for, etc.  A really good eassy is by MacIntosh called "Unpacking The Invisible Napsack."  You can not talk about racism without talking about priveledge.  But i'm a commie anyway... sue me.



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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 9:55:10 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

It's all wrong


That doesn't absolve you from needing to make distinctions. That doesn't absolve you from having to differentiate between offensive attitudes and harmful racial injustices. How else will you ever be able to separate the stupid idiot from a systemic evil or historical wrong?

quote:

giveeverything: I feel like I'm in some alternative universe anyway where people have gone insane.


Yes, like Sanity's unidentified racial victimhood. I was just looking up the demographics of IDAHO where he seems to live according to his profile:

Idaho: 95.6% WHITE; .6% AFRICAN AMERICAN.





< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/22/2008 10:02:08 PM >

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:00:02 PM   
giveeverything


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You did misunderstand me.  I am talking about institutions not individuals.  I can speak for the US when I say that we have insitutions that priveledge white people over people of color.  This is not to say that people of color are not capable.  This IS to say that our society has decided that what is most desirable is whiteness.  That is racism.  That is hegemony.  So please don't put crappy words in my mouth. 

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:05:57 PM   
Sanity


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I haven't suffered as much, so the racism I suffer doesn't count. It's okay to hate whitey because hundreds of years ago this happened. Or that happened. Indians lost a war, blacks sold blacks into slavery... etc. So you can do whatever you want to whitey today, we'll call it "justice" or something else besides "racism". He's laying there dying but it can't be racism that killed him, because he's white.

Of course, that makes perfect sense. Whatever was I thinking...

Only thing is, 200 years from now, it'll be perfectly okay for my descendants to hate people of color because of what happens to me today. That won't be, that can't be racism then.

Right?

Great logic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


There's really nothing in American history to suggest you've suffered anything on par with American blacks or the American Indian.

Were any of your relative sold off? Were any of your ancestors lynched for looking at a White woman? Did you have to sit in the back of the Bus? Were you not considered "a person" under the US Constitution?

I live in Baltimore City. I've had my share of challenging race relations here. But, there's no way its ever going to be comparable to real, racial injustice.

The undercurrent of this thread, which is entirely ludicrous, BTW, is that if Barak Obama became US President, this would somehow set back race relations in the USA. That's just a preposterous notion.


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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:07:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

If you are not the group in power you do not have the power to be racist over another.... That doesn't mean you can't be intolerant and biased. It simply means that the idea of "reverse-racism" is an oxymoron.

Let's let English be English. Make up your own words for your made-up definitions.
 
Racism:

  1. [n]  discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
  2. [n]  the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=racism
 
As a practical matter, "the group in power" at a given moment can be the six guys surrounding you in an alley. Political power has never been a prerequisite for racism. Eh, in English that is.
 
K.
 

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:08:52 PM   
Sanity


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I've been around the world, cloudboy. Again - don't pretend that you know me, because you don't have a freaking clue who I am.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

It's all wrong


That doesn't absolve you from needing to make distinctions. That doesn't absolve you from having to differentiate between offensive attitudes and harmful racial injustices. How else will you ever be able to separate the stupid idiot from a systemic evil or historical wrong?

quote:

giveeverything: I feel like I'm in some alternative universe anyway where people have gone insane.


Yes, like Sanity's unidentified racial victimhood. I was just looking up the demographics of IDAHO where he seems to live according to his profile:

Idaho: 95.6% WHITE; .6% AFRICAN AMERICAN.






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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:16:41 PM   
giveeverything


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Let's let English be English. Make up your own words for your made-up definitions.
 
It's not like I'm smart enough to have come up with this idea on my own.  Lots of people thinking about power relationships (hmmmm... the power relationships within our societies, not just our bedrooms) and have been talking about this. 
 
Here is an excerpt from an essay "Honky Want A Cracker" which can be found here http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/content/2002-06/24wise.cfm
 
When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “nigger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with.

Power is like body armor. And while not all white folks have the same degree of power, there is a very real extent to which all of us have more than we need vis-à-vis people of color: at least when it comes to racial position, privilege and perceptions.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:17:43 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

You did misunderstand me.  I am talking about institutions not individuals.  I can speak for the US when I say that we have insitutions that priveledge white people over people of color. 



You're absolutely wrong. In my lifetime, government institutions have been required by law to give preference to blacks and other minorities, which is exactly the opposite of your misguided opinion.

quote:

This is not to say that people of color are not capable.  This IS to say that our society has decided that what is most desirable is whiteness.  That is racism.  That is hegemony.  So please don't put crappy words in my mouth. 


Our society decided that?

Bullshit.

Every color is just as cool as every other fucking color. You never watch MTV???

And it was you who suggested that blacks can't run institutions. You don't like how it looks when its run back by you, quit suggesting it.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:20:29 PM   
giveeverything


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I haven't suffered as much, so the racism I suffer doesn't count. It's okay to hate whitey because hundreds of years ago this happened. Or that happened. Indians lost a war, blacks sold blacks into slavery... etc. So you can do whatever you want to whitey today, we'll call it "justice" or something else besides "racism". He's laying there dying but it can't be racism that killed him, because he's white.

Of course, that makes perfect sense. Whatever was I thinking...

Only thing is, 200 years from now, it'll be perfectly okay for my descendants to hate people of color because of what happens to me today. That won't be, that can't be racism then.

Right?

Great logic.


WTF?  I cannot deal with angry-white-men-who-are-so-mistreated tonight.  It just stinks and there's no winning this.  I know.. let's take issues of discrimination and make them "white" issues.  Hey I'm white, let's talk about me, me, ME.  but but.. but.. I'm white..... jeez...
 
flame away... I consider it an honor.

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RE: Interesting Quotes from Obama's Pastor - 3/22/2008 10:22:13 PM   
giveeverything


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And it was you who suggested that blacks can't run institutions. You don't like how it looks when its run back by you, quit suggesting it.


You are insane with white priveldege.  Show me where I said that blacks can't run institutions. (biting my tongue not saying Whitaho, d'oh I said it).

< Message edited by giveeverything -- 3/22/2008 10:25:04 PM >

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