True submission is...

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pollux -> True submission is... (9/27/2005 7:15:51 AM)
Lady Kay's post over on the the "Femdoms can't find a decent partner" thread inspired me to post this. It seems to me that female dominants tend to roughly divide the pool of available men who are courting them into two types: horny/kinky guys mostly interested in the erotic component (I've seen these guys called "bottoms" with the term "at best" sometimes derogatorily appended) and "true" submissives. My question to the ladies is.... What is a "true" submissive? In other words, think about a statement like this: If a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does/says X, then a true submissive would do or say Y. I'd like to not have this degenerate into a diatribe against the clueless "do me" hordes who write one-liners, don't take rejection well, etc. And I'm not looking for a list of qualities (a true submissive is emotionally secure, reliable, responsible, etc.) -- we've been over that ground endless times already. I'm more interested in the specific actions or behaviors that a true submissive exhibits that a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does not (or vice versa). If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? Standard disclaimer #63: Yes, I know, everbody is going to have their own idea about "true" submission, and that there is no "true" answer to this.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 8:08:01 AM)
quote: I'm more interested in the specific actions or behaviors that a true submissive exhibits that a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does not (or vice versa). Just my opinion, but the HNG's out there seem to ask only about what we, as the dominants, can do for them... If we mention housecleaning there seems to be the "will I be doing it naked?" Well, since I don't live in a cave I would have to say no, I have windows and neighbors and the occasional visitor. Then there is the attitude "how will you reward/punish me?" I think a large part of it is mental... For the horny/kinky/bottomy guy it's a fantasy, a favorite movie scene or chapter in a book. Submissives, again, in my opinion, find that doing things for their dominant is rewarding in and of itself and don't do it in hopes of a "reward" later on, they do it out of the desire to serve. As far as specific actions are concerned? Hmmm, generally I note the diffence between them when I start asking questions about how they view their experiences in the lifestyle, or if they are new, how realistic their ideals are. When someone refuses to call me anything but Mistress.... I see that as fantasy land, most of the time I will tell them my real name, if they use it... great!! I know then that they see me as a real person, if they persist in calling me Mistress.... well, I end it fairly soon. There's more, but I just woke up and am not thinking as clearly as I would like to be... lol quote: If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? Excellent question!! My husband is that guy! And he is also a very strong dominant. To me, the difference is that they do it out of love and respect for the partnership between them. If I bring him a cup of coffee I am not submitting to him, I am helping him out by saving him a trip downstairs, not because I have this "need" or "desire" to serve him. Again, I believe it's a mentality that goes along with it. And YES, I know that a submissive acts out of love and respect as well, the difference is that a submissive "serves" their dominant out of the desire or need to do so and in doing so also fulfills them. Hopefully at least some of this made sense. Jewel

Jasmyn -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 8:22:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux Lady Kay's post over on the the "Femdoms can't find a decent partner" thread inspired me to post this. It seems to me that female dominants tend to roughly divide the pool of available men who are courting them into two types: horny/kinky guys mostly interested in the erotic component (I've seen these guys called "bottoms" with the term "at best" sometimes derogatorily appended) and "true" submissives. My question to the ladies is.... What is a "true" submissive? In other words, think about a statement like this: If a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does/says X, then a true submissive would do or say Y. I'd like to not have this degenerate into a diatribe against the clueless "do me" hordes who write one-liners, don't take rejection well, etc. And I'm not looking for a list of qualities (a true submissive is emotionally secure, reliable, responsible, etc.) -- we've been over that ground endless times already. I'm more interested in the specific actions or behaviors that a true submissive exhibits that a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does not (or vice versa). If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? Standard disclaimer #63: Yes, I know, everbody is going to have their own idea about "true" submission, and that there is no "true" answer to this. I think having only two catergories is limiting thus do not define potential partners in the way you've expressed, but do understand that you are generalisation for the sake of the discussion. So in answer, horny/kinky guys mostly interested in the erotic component seek out domination because it makes their dick hard... "true" submissive seek out domination because it makes my dick hard (metaphorically speaking) ;) If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? ... the Mistress he worships. Oh and the fact we wouldn't be sharing responsibility for the household, it would be his job to look after and maintain the household...I have better things to be doing than the mundane.. like having my nails down ;)

MistressKay -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 8:34:50 AM)
I don't believe in the whole "true" submissive branding (or wannabe). If one believes he is submissive then he is submissive - one who desires it secretly is no less true than one who lives it 24/7. Both share the same need, the same desire, the same passion to be what they are inside. Whether never explored or explored online or in person it doesn't matter. You are what you believe yourself to be. In regards to my previous post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with kinky men who desire to submit only when they are aroused - in fact my personal choice is a man who sees his submission as foreplay! ... but most FemDommes are looking for a submissive who will be a submissive regardless of their state of arousal. Thus why it is difficult for many FemDommes to find what they seek. No two people are the same and each will seek out what it is they feel they need in life. Some relationships add value to ones life and bring out the best in who we are... some relationships are self-destructive and take away the value in our lives. Finding that healthy balance that allows for exploration without stripping away who we are in the process is the true joy of being in a relationship. wishing you all the best, Lady Kay

thetammyjo -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 9:59:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressKay I don't believe in the whole "true" submissive branding (or wannabe). If one believes he is submissive then he is submissive - one who desires it secretly is no less true than one who lives it 24/7. Both share the same need, the same desire, the same passion to be what they are inside. Whether never explored or explored online or in person it doesn't matter. You are what you believe yourself to be. I would mostly agree with this but also add that I think it also matters what the partner believes. If one calls him/herself submissive but finds no partner who agrees with that assessment then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate what being submissive is. For me the line between bottom and submissive is one of focus and authority. The bottom is focused on their own needs and desires and may or may not give authority to another person in terms of how to fulfill this. Nothing at all wrong with this, just be honest about it and you'll have better luck finding successful partnerships. The submissive is focused on giving authority to another so that both partners have their needs and desires fulfilled. Again, nothing wrong with this, just be honest about it and you'll have better luck finding approrpriate dominants. Just my opinions, folks.

LadyKim -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 11:44:21 AM)
This question is going to have as many answers as people you find to answer it because everyone is looking for someone different and expect different things from the people they call submissives. For me a submissive is someone that truly has a deep need to please. Someone who gets true pleasure from being told 'good girl... good boy'. A person that knows they need to find someone to care for, perform for, nourture, and see smile because of something they did. A person who views being 'used' for someone else's enjoyment as the beginning to their own satisifaction and sense of self. But that is just my opinion.

pollux -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 2:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel quote: If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? Excellent question!! My husband is that guy! And he is also a very strong dominant. Interesting.

pollux -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 2:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmyn Oh and the fact we wouldn't be sharing responsibility for the household, it would be his job to look after and maintain the household...I have better things to be doing than the mundane.. like having my nails down ;) I saw the wink, so I'm not sure how seriously to take this. Do you really mean that? Maintain the household, inside and out, all by himself, with no assistance or shared responsibility on your part?

pollux -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 2:48:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressKay I don't believe in the whole "true" submissive branding (or wannabe). I don't either, which is why I put it in quotes in the first place [;)] quote: In regards to my previous post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with kinky men who desire to submit only when they are aroused - in fact my personal choice is a man who sees his submission as foreplay! ... but most FemDommes are looking for a submissive who will be a submissive regardless of their state of arousal. Thus why it is difficult for many FemDommes to find what they seek. Let me ask the question a different way. In the other post, you mentioned your study in which you found that 87% of the men in your sample were (at best, to use your words) kinky bottoms. The other 13% were -- presumably superior -- candidates for a relationship with a dominant woman, of which 12% were basically unacceptable for one reason or another. Take one of the guys from the 87%. Let's say he's a good partner in all sorts of vanilla ways. Compare him to a guy from the 1% of ideal subs, or whatever you want to call them. What -- specifically -- does the sub (1%) do for you that the kinky guy (87%) does not?

AAkasha -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 2:53:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux Lady Kay's post over on the the "Femdoms can't find a decent partner" thread inspired me to post this. It seems to me that female dominants tend to roughly divide the pool of available men who are courting them into two types: horny/kinky guys mostly interested in the erotic component (I've seen these guys called "bottoms" with the term "at best" sometimes derogatorily appended) and "true" submissives. My question to the ladies is.... What is a "true" submissive? In other words, think about a statement like this: If a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does/says X, then a true submissive would do or say Y. I'd like to not have this degenerate into a diatribe against the clueless "do me" hordes who write one-liners, don't take rejection well, etc. And I'm not looking for a list of qualities (a true submissive is emotionally secure, reliable, responsible, etc.) -- we've been over that ground endless times already. I'm more interested in the specific actions or behaviors that a true submissive exhibits that a horny/kinky/bottomy guy does not (or vice versa). If this exercise isn't challenging enough for you (or it seems obvious), here is an extra credit question. Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. How is a guy like this different from a "true" submissive? Standard disclaimer #63: Yes, I know, everbody is going to have their own idea about "true" submission, and that there is no "true" answer to this. A horny/kinky/bottom guy wants to be dominated on his own terms mostly and to get a sexual satisfaction, or satisfy something inside of him regardless of what the dominant partner wants. So much so that he can actually be upset, or pout -- for example -- if he can't 'orally service' her enough. Who is the service supposed to please? A "true" submissive does it because the pleasure he receives is in the act of giving. For a service type submissive, it's because he knows his assistance makes her happy. For a fetishy submissive, it's because he knows he is pushing erotic buttons for her and her thrills and excitement makes him feel wonderful. And there is nothing wrong with an ordinary, run of the mill masculine adult who shares responsibility for the household, etc. -- ironically, a "vanilla" guy can sometimes be a better submissive than a "self labeled" sub. It's because his acts of devotion are sincere and an act of love -- that's it -- and not an act to fill a need of his own that will leave him empty and depressed if he isn't getting his "fix." A submissive that "needs" to serve to feel self worth or feel needed can be nagging, moody and pushy. A devoted husband does what he needs to do to keep his relationship in harmony and his wife happy -- because he feels compelled to -- not because he wants something in return. Akasha

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 3:10:10 PM)
quote: What is a "true" submissive? One who submits, preferably because he derives satisfaction from submitting/serving. quote: Main Entry: sub·mis·sive Pronunciation: s&b-'mis-iv Function: adjective : characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others I know that is simplistic, but I don't believe in complicating things when unnecessary. Having said that, I don't mind a horny submissive at all, especially if he's horny because of me. [8D] M

MistressGrace07 -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 3:50:24 PM)
(from My journal, Sept 15, 2005) submission. It's a simple word. Simple definition. sub·mis·sion P Pronunciation Key (sb-mshn) n. The act of submitting to the power of another: “Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission” (Simone Weil). The state of having submitted. See Synonyms at surrender. But is it really all that simple? BDSM, D/s is based on submission. It's based on consensual submission. The idea being, you WANT to give your power to another. I believe in order to give your power to another, you have to HAVE that power to begin with. In other words we're all Dominants. A lot of the problems I've seen in D/s relationships come from people who are not truly giving up power, they're giving up control. These people have been used as doormats most of their lives. They allow people to boss them around - anyone who is a bully can run their lives. Problems, as you can anticipate, run rampant for these types of personalities. The risk of them being "taken" and seriously harmed by a fake Dominant is high. But what about those people who do have the power, desire to submit, but find themselves in frustrating situations? To Me submission is natural, free flowing and, when grounded in the inner power someone already possesses, beautiful. submission is putting the other person's needs first - all of them. No matter what the situation, your feelings or state of being. Some have called this My "goddess complex" speaking. LIke I think of submission in fantasy proportions - slaves to serve My every whim no matter what. But I think it's more than that. I believe people can half-submit - still holding on the reigns of their own life. They are sometimes accused of "topping from the bottom" but I don't think it should stand like that. They are simply bottoms. They have their needs, their desires, their wants - and that's fine. They can find people to meet them - that's fine. But they shouldn't label themselves as things they are not. This is not submission. I guess I see these people more like going to the doctor or the beauty parlor. You "obey" the stylist. You sit where she tells you, you let her work on your hair, you don't move until she's done. But you do it because that's what you need. You needed your hair done. That's not submission. I watch "beauty parlor" subs all the time. Friends I play with sometimes say they are in a M/s relationship - but she is wild and can do whatever she pleases. He has no more of her submission than I have over My cat. My cat belongs to Me, but he is not submissive. If he was, I'd have all My toes in one piece! They say they're submissive. They protest - I obey, I want Him/Her happy. Yet, when push comes to shove... who do they think about? Themselves. Not that this is wrong - you have to think about yourself. I've met too many people who don't take care of themselves. Who don't care. It's wrong. But there are fine lines between bottoming and subbing. And I'm really tired of bottoms who believe their subs. One of My favorite memories was the night I felt jack's submission change. It wasn't a big change. W/we looked the same afterwards. No one really would have known there had been a change, but there was. W/we both felt it like raw energy. It's when I told him that he was My slave. I was doing a knife play scene with him, leaving long trails of scratched skin. I then held the knife to his throat. he looked into My eyes and, without any prompting on My part or leading, said "my life is Yours to take... if it pleases You." That was his submission moving to a new level. Not saying that everyone needs to be at that point with their Dominant. But it was a manifestation of what I felt from him - deep submission. Consuming submission. I've met a lot of people since I put My ad on collarme.com. This is part of why I'm writing this. Most of the people who message Me are bottoms. I have no patience for simple bottoms any more. I have people to care for, I do not need to expend more energy to care of men who have no spine or soul. I want strength, I want to feel like the rider who takes the reigns of a powerful stallion - knowing it is all hers to control - to guide - to move. I'm tired of sitting on carousel horses.

frenchpet -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 4:33:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressGrace07 (from My journal, Sept 15, 2005) submission. It's a simple word. Simple definition. sub·mis·sion P Pronunciation Key (sb-mshn) n. The act of submitting to the power of another: “Oppression that cannot be overcome does not give rise to revolt but to submission” (Simone Weil). I'm disturbed by the link made through this quote between sexual kinks and concentration camps. But that's just me, it's probably OK.

Misstoyou -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 4:59:56 PM)
After a while, this really is a "knows 'em when you sees 'em" thing. My shorthand categorization (which I've said on other threads) is service subs and sensation subs (otherwise known as "horny, kinky, bottomy guy.") These are the guys who only want to serve if the Mistress does the specific thing(s) that does it for them, usually in the bedroom. Now, that may work quite well, if that "thing" does it for the Mistress as well, but in general it's rather limiting and the focus is wrong - on the wants/desires of the submissive, not of the dominant. A service submissive (aka "true" , in my personal opinion) gets pleasure and satisfaction from pleasing the Mistress, not only in the bedroom and not only doing things he "likes." My sub does plenty of things for me that are not intrinsically sexy or kinky or that he would ordinarily choose to do. And that service gives him (and definitely gives me) pleasure and satisfaction because he's doing it for "me," regardless if I'm in boots, stockings, and corset (insert your own preferred fetishwear) or not. [:)]

Shayna -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 6:11:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics. My dream sub [;)]

nephandi -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 7:05:40 PM)
Ok i am a girl and not a boy but i will answer anyway if that i okey, i consider myself a submissive, but i am submissive becouse that makes me feel good, sure it is nice to make others happy, but i am submissive for me. i dont want a one sided relationship where it is all aboute the Dominant or all aboute me, for me a relationship should be aboute sharing whit the Dominant in charge. i am awere that somone might think me just a bottom for this, but that dont realy matter that mutch for me, for me it is inportant that i feel like the definition i have put on myself is right, not that everyone think so to.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 7:58:06 PM)
quote: Take one of the guys from the 87%. Let's say he's a good partner in all sorts of vanilla ways. Compare him to a guy from the 1% of ideal subs, or whatever you want to call them. What -- specifically -- does the sub (1%) do for you that the kinky guy (87%) does not? A kinky guy to me is someone who wants an equal relationship, with focus on what brings him pleasure mostly, with occasional consideration to my kinky/play needs. A sub's focus is ideally on my needs and wants, and of course he is bendable to be as kinky as I need if we are a good match. M P.S. Should have read MisstoYou's reply because she described what I consider a submissive to be better than I.

Misstoyou -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 9:19:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig P.S. Should have read MisstoYou's reply because she described what I consider a submissive to be better than I. Thanks, M. You're too kind. Well, not too kind ... I imagine you're just kind enough or evil enough, as the situation warrants. Like me. [;)]

pollux -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 9:58:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: Take one of the guys from the 87%. Let's say he's a good partner in all sorts of vanilla ways. Compare him to a guy from the 1% of ideal subs, or whatever you want to call them. What -- specifically -- does the sub (1%) do for you that the kinky guy (87%) does not? A kinky guy to me is someone who wants an equal relationship, with focus on what brings him pleasure mostly, with occasional consideration to my kinky/play needs. That doesn't sound like a very equal relationship to me. quote: A sub's focus is ideally on my needs and wants, and of course he is bendable to be as kinky as I need if we are a good match. How about a sub who's focused on his needs AND your needs? What label do we give those guys? If anyone ever asks me why I hate labels, I'm going to point them to this thread. [:D]

pollux -> RE: True submission is... (9/27/2005 10:09:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Misstoyou A service submissive (aka "true" , in my personal opinion) gets pleasure and satisfaction from pleasing the Mistress, not only in the bedroom and not only doing things he "likes." My sub does plenty of things for me that are not intrinsically sexy or kinky or that he would ordinarily choose to do. And that service gives him (and definitely gives me) pleasure and satisfaction because he's doing it for "me," regardless if I'm in boots, stockings, and corset (insert your own preferred fetishwear) or not. [:)] But this -- doing things he doesn't like to make you happy -- would be true of a considerate vanilla guy, wouldn't it? What is it that made you say, "you know, a considerate vanilla guy isn't going to cut it, I need a true submissive". This isn't addressed to you specifically (because I know you've said elsewhere that you've already found a partner), but your post made me think of this question: Imagine that you've found your ideal sub. A mature, responsible, outgoing, attractive masculine guy with a lot going for him, totally enamored with you and totally devoted to you. He's brilliant, good looking, successful, emotionally secure, educated, well-read, adventurous.... He's your emotional/spiritual/political/economic soulmate. He's also got this elusive quality of submission -- outside the bedroom -- going on. What's a typical day in his life (with you) like?

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