RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims.

RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (Full Version)

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czarforever -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/16/2008 1:51:21 PM)
listen to me, if he cares that you aint okay with the name calling and physical pain, he's a sadist and he will stop. now, if he instead says to you, "slave, take this pain. It's good for you" while you are obviously unhappy and not wanting it, than it's abuse. If he trys to talk you into things you dont want or if he slowly puts you down and slowly conditions you into low self esteem than thats abuse too. Some broads like that though.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/16/2008 3:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellosmoooo I blame my dad mostly for my weakness. This one line explains loads about what's going on. When you've worked through your issues with your dad enough to see that it just "is" and he didn't react to you but to his own issuues rather than having "I am a victim" feeling, you'll be a lot further on the road to self-awareness, great self esteem and better relationship decisions. It's not easy...but you can do it. Overcoming these things is what we're meant to do. Master Fire

candisa -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/16/2008 10:42:27 PM)
greetings hellosmoooo This is a wonderful and educational post, thank you for sharing. That which does not kill us, only makes us stronger. cowardly men like the one in your post, makes that quote very true. I hope you will take some time to heal, best wishes.

softness -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/17/2008 11:04:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: czarforever listen to me, if he cares that you aint okay with the name calling and physical pain, he's a sadist and he will stop. now, if he instead says to you, "slave, take this pain. It's good for you" while you are obviously unhappy and not wanting it, than it's abuse. totally disagrees I am currently interviewing with a man who has told me from the start that there will be times when I will do anything to escape from what He is putting me through. I will not have a safe word. Play will not end until HE decides it will. I predict that fairly often there will be play I "do not like" and am "unhappy with" That is the understanding from the beginning between us. Is this abuse? .. NO.Would it be abuse if He had pretended from the outset that I would be totally safe and happy with everything we do and He would listen to my safe word and react accordingly. Perhaps yes. I am seeking to become property. As property I know that for US (just Him and me we are not seeking to universalise) my enjoyment and happiness with play is not actually a factor. Sure it would be great if all the play which excites Him excites me too .. but thats dreamland talking. I am submitting to Him ... submitting (for US .. again not seeking to universalise) doesn't mean following orders and participating in play that pleases me and then pulling a halt when I dont like it anymore. Submitting means doing what is asked of me and going through what is put before me, whether I necessarily want to or not.I think that for US the times when we will feel our D/s the most ... is when He asks something of me that frightens and repulses me, and that I still accomplish. There is a very fine line between abuse and D/s. For me, it would be abuse if it went against what we had negotiated and agreed in the contract. It would be abuse if was not what I had consented to in the beginning.

foxhole -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/17/2008 12:20:31 PM)
Sir, such a pleasure it was to read Your post fox

charlotteS -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/17/2008 3:06:17 PM)
I have to agree with softness here. There are often fine lines between the things we do and enjoy, and abuse. I would love to be able to say "if this person has ABUSER tattooed on his forehead, this and that than we have now recognized an abuser/abused and can take the appropriate actions. I wish everyone in the world could have happy, healthy fulfilling relationships and it makes me sad that will never be the case. However, I feel strongly that it is important to recognize that the road to a happy, healthy, and fulfilling relationship will be defined differently by every single person. I was at a local dungeon this Sat. night playing with a couple that Master and I have been developing a friendship with. The man was beating the other girl and I and let me tell you I have never been hit that hard in my life. Within a short time I was reduced to tears and starting to let the words "please Sir...." escape, not finishing the sentence of course because I didn't want to say "please stop." I wanted to be pushed past my limit, I wanted to be afraid and cry and scream and beg for him to stop knowing he would only stop when he wanted to. When Master, who had been there the whole time finally stepped in and suggested I had had enough pain for the night I was grateful. A few minutes later I was a smiling happy girl, feeling more satisfied than I had in a while. I want to feel truly helpless sometimes (in the hands of people I trust to carry me through.) It's a dangerous line sometimes and by no means am I saying this is how everyone (or even very many other people) are wired. But I spent a long time beating myself up for the desires for abuse and humiliation and complete helplessness that I felt and I have only come to love and embrace myself by finally allowing myself to experience these things. If after that night I felt that no one there cared for me, that I was being manipulated, or that I was somehow damaged, I would reconsider exploring these kinds of activities. But only I can say for sure that I feel good about something and I have to judge that by instinct and self-awareness. No one can give me a list of actions that are bad and tell me I'll be fine if I avoid them. Most of the actions on that list would have happened this weekend in fact. I echo your sentiment that people must learn to recognize danger signs. I'm just trying to point out that these danger signs cannot be defined by actions. They must be defined by feelings and instinct. If you feel abused then it doesn't even matter if your partner is doing anything "wrong" or not. The relationship is wrong for you and you need to take the appropriate steps to take care of yourself. I wish that everyone started out self-aware enough to be able to do this (myself included) but understand that this is not the case and sometimes people need a kick in the butt to recognize when something is wrong. I just cringe at absolutes because while they may help some people recognize a bad situation they are in they also help to alienate people who are wired differently and personally I feel that they help to create the false notion that we can solve our problems by finding someone else to tell us what is or is not wrong. When I'm counseling a friend on relationship troubles I usually point out the way they feel more than their actions. "Do you feel that he is ignoring you when he doesn't call?" If yes than it is an issue that need to be addressed. If she is trying to figure out why he doesn't call her and analyze his every move and find the motivations behind it than she has missed the point that the man could have a million reasons for not calling her. If it makes her feel bad than she needs to address it whether it's because his phone died, his mom told him not to call her or he was with another girl. I just feel rather strongly about the concept of lists of warning signs versus relating ones own personal experiences. I don't want anyone to think I believe what happened to the OP is ok. I just think it would have been much more beneficial to an abused person by post personal experiences and examples, rather than making long lists of "an abuser does X, an abuser does Y." or just saying "You're in an unhealthy situation, get out." without any sort of qualifiers. It was in her experience that the man who hit her was abusive, as opposed to "all men who hit women are abusive." If all men who hit are abusive, I'd have to be involved with an abuser, to be happy. charlotte

softness -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/17/2008 3:25:57 PM)
claps ... very well expressed sis ... much better than I managed One person's abusive asshole is another persons dream partner. There are of course people (men and women lets not just attacks Dominant Men here) who are abusers. Those people aside, we all just need to find our match. I know that I will blossom and be fullfilled in a dynamic where the play is like that charlotte just described. That will make me happy. It would just as likely make the girl next to me full of fear and misery. Some, possibly most, submissives NEED to know that the bottom line is they are safe and have a degree (no matter how tiny) of control. Playing with a man who listened when I said no would ultimately make me unhappy. I NEED to feel helpless and afraid... it proves something to me, it makes something abstract in my soul into a concrete event that I can cling to. The relationship described in the OP would look frightenly similar to the one I am hoping to get into FROM THE OUTSIDE .. from the INSIDE .. it would be one that made Him happy .. and make me blossom. Echoing what charlotte said ... only the people on the insde and SPECIFICALLY the submissive can decide whether it is abuse or not. One size does not fit all ... we just need to make sure we find the people that we do fit.

manwholuvs -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/17/2008 6:17:55 PM)
I for one cannot understand why one would ever get satisfaction out of destroying someone's self esteem or going beyond that point where respect is out the window and the actions are malicious and meant to destroy. This lifestyle is not about that in my opinion. To me the bond and trust are there as the foundations for all that can be shared and explored together but one does not destroy the foundation for if it is no longer strong and viable then the structure will not survive and even collapse

charlotteS -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 8:38:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: manwholuvs I for one cannot understand why one would ever get satisfaction out of destroying someone's self esteem or going beyond that point where respect is out the window and the actions are malicious and meant to destroy. This lifestyle is not about that in my opinion. To me the bond and trust are there as the foundations for all that can be shared and explored together but one does not destroy the foundation for if it is no longer strong and viable then the structure will not survive and even collapse I couldn't agree more. I think where I end up feeling the need to interject is when hitting someone or treating them like property is equated as always abuse. Beating me till I cry does not destroy my self-esteem and humiliating me in public does not mean my partner does not respect me. For many people this would not be the case. But there are some who can engage in these activities from a healthy place and in fact find themselves more fulfilled and happy when they have someone who can share those forbidden paths with them. charlotte

Mercnbeth -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 10:53:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: manwholuvs I for one cannot understand why one would ever get satisfaction out of destroying someone's self esteem or going beyond that point where respect is out the window and the actions are malicious and meant to destroy. mwl, I'll start by addressing the OP. My beth is a very "nice woman", I often do things to her that would be considered "humiliating". Never have I "demeaned" and I think she'd kick anyone's ass, for my amusement, if they referred to her as a victim. To your quote... During the most humiliating acts I've had my beth perform, public or private, there was no destruction involved. Most of our 'public' play is private between us. she wears the most elegant gowns, attending formal functions for pleasure and business in some of the finest venues in the world. she's never worn any underclothes to any of them. I've required her 'flash' me at public places that perhaps would shock you. Privately, or in a club dungeon setting, things get much more intense. If, to you, begging at the top of your lungs in a room full of people for permission to climax is "humiliating and demeaning" - I'm guilty. beth would call it gratifying. Whether crawling through mud, strictly tied outdoors on a hot day outside our bedroom while I watched her sipping a cool drink, or used as a urinal. In its entirety beth would refer to these things as "fulfilling". quote: This lifestyle is not about that in my opinion. Yes, mwl, it very much is. quote: To me the bond and trust are there as the foundations for all that can be shared and explored together but one does not destroy the foundation for if it is no longer strong and viable then the structure will not survive and even collapse. The cause for "collapse" isn't from being who you are, its from acting and being something you are not. There can not be "humiliation and demeaning" in our interaction, for the very reason you cite. The "bond and trust" we have in each other prevents it. Not only does it not destroy the foundation but instead it makes us stronger, because by each and every "humiliating" act, we reconfirm the commitment we made over 5 years ago to each other. That commitment was to a relationship requiring unconditional trust and honesty. Honesty, demonstrated by appreciating fantasies and desires, instead of showing disgust. Even if that 'ultimate' desire is personified as a desire to serve me; I'd question how being fulfilled by the process can be considered victimized. It takes strength to go against a current expressed by many that labels you a 'victim' or the ever popular 'doormat'. Early on, I saw and respected that strength in beth. I see her growing stronger every day. I'm noting that there was one other key element missing in my response. Maybe its because our personal situation right now doesn't lend to it as much as usual. However its still something that best describes our relationship in one word - FUN! We are both very much "victims" of fun. We exhaust ourselves having fun. "Victim"? I'd describe it in the context of WIITWD as someone who lacks the self confidence to go after and act upon their fantasies and desires. No matter how 'messy' or 'disgusting' you get during the process if you are confident and secure you can never be "demeaned" and never be a "victim". If you are, its a result of projecting other peoples prejudices on yourself, becoming a "victim" of your own insecurity.

camille65 -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 1:12:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotteS quote: ORIGINAL: manwholuvs I for one cannot understand why one would ever get satisfaction out of destroying someone's self esteem or going beyond that point where respect is out the window and the actions are malicious and meant to destroy. This lifestyle is not about that in my opinion. To me the bond and trust are there as the foundations for all that can be shared and explored together but one does not destroy the foundation for if it is no longer strong and viable then the structure will not survive and even collapse I couldn't agree more. I think where I end up feeling the need to interject is when hitting someone or treating them like property is equated as always abuse. Beating me till I cry does not destroy my self-esteem and humiliating me in public does not mean my partner does not respect me. For many people this would not be the case. But there are some who can engage in these activities from a healthy place and in fact find themselves more fulfilled and happy when they have someone who can share those forbidden paths with them. charlotte Sometimes it is necessary for someone to be torn down. I think it is necessary for care to be taken to build them back up, when that doesn't happen it signals abuse to me. Tearing down in and of itself does not always mean abuse to me.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 1:13:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotteS But there are some who can engage in these activities from a healthy place and in fact find themselves more fulfilled and happy when they have someone who can share those forbidden paths with them. Beyond that, there are those for whom happiness and fulfillment can only be found on those forbidden paths. I am sure this is unfathomable for many. How could humiliation, degradation and defilement be healthy and fulfilling? How can one person's abuse be another's heaven? Life is like that...and the best we can do is try and respect the differences, even if we can never understand them. Taggard

softness -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 3:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth "Victim"? I'd describe it in the context of WIITWD as someone who lacks the self confidence to go after and act upon their fantasies and desires. No matter how 'messy' or 'disgusting' you get during the process if you are confident and secure you can never be "demeaned" and never be a "victim". If you are, its a result of projecting other peoples prejudices on yourself, becoming a "victim" of your own insecurity. wishes you could bottle that ... and feed it to people on entry to the (hates to use the phrase but still) "lifestyle" thinks it would save a great deal of people .. a great deal of angst

Hauptmann -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 3:53:15 PM)
one of the more thought provoking threads on here I have read in a long while. Thanks for reminding me why I bother to read stuff on collar chat!!!

Aswad -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/18/2008 5:51:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellosmoooo I blame my dad mostly for my weakness. Stop doing that, and start owning yourself again. Your dad doesn't sound like someone you still want in your life, so toss him out. Health, al-Aswad.

respectyourowner -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/19/2008 8:10:56 AM)
If a woman chooses this lifestyle that is one thing. If she does not then it is abuse. I was married with someone who was not in to this lifestyle and I did not dominate her because she did not want it. I am now in a relationship where the girl wants what I am giving her. If someone were to look from the outside; I would look like an abuser. She wants to live this life so I am only making sexual desires happen. To be safe I also had her sign an agreement that states the she wants me to perform these acts on her.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/19/2008 8:24:15 AM)
quote: To be safe I also had her sign an agreement that states the she wants me to perform these acts on her. respectyourowner, just curious...how does that make you "safe"?

Aswad -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (3/19/2008 9:39:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth just curious...how does that make you "safe"? In some jurisdictions, a signed statement (some will require it to be witnessed, or even notarized) that you're a willing participant will clear you of rape charges if they should arise, and will be mitigating if something should occur. Not that it's a blank check, of course. If you cross the line into what you can't consent to, for instance, then the best you can hope for is that it will be mitigating. Also, as far as I know, most jurisdictions will not accept it as prior consent, requiring continuous consent instead, but it'll put any trial in a more reasonable perspective, provided you stay within the bounds noted on the paper. Health, al-Aswad.

NoreenSwan -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (4/20/2008 2:12:43 PM)
I FEEL YOUR PAIN. These abusive men have a way of depleting self esteem in the women they are with. It's awful but it really is like brainwashing, then it's almost like an addiction for the women. I'm not a psychiatrist, I can't explain it. It's referred to as the "Stockholm Syndrome." Look it up. It's not really about low self-esteem, it's about having a giving and forgiving nature that values being loving and unselfish and the rest is manipulation from the abuser who can be very very clever. They don't start off like bullies -- they start off like the nicest guys in the world, perhaps appearing to embody your own finest ideals of human behaviour that you yourself strive to live up to. Abusers don't abuse the victim ALL day long. There are actually some very intense times that seem like perfection, paradise and a honeymoon and the victims are always shown that part first. When they fall for someone, then the ugly comes out. The abuse comes in spurts and as time increases, the spurts get more and more frequent and last longer. Being treated right is foreign, so they feel out of their element. They are not sure how to react. I know it may sound a bit goofy, but it's the same as someone who has been in prison so long that they become institutionalized. Good luck to you and I know your wiser now so you will be o.k.

FullCircle -> RE: Transforming nice women into humiliated and demeaned victims. (4/20/2008 2:45:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hellosmoooo Well, just last night I read an article about abused women. My first master fit the bill: "A sadist' that seemed able to assess the vulnerability of a woman and exploit it to manipulate her for his need for control and dominance. These sadists have a degraded view of women in which they are all ultimately 'bitches' and 'whores'. ...... Sorry I couldn't read the whole thing I. I got so turned on I had to go and wank half way through.[:D]

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