RE: Why there is “Bad” (Full Version)

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charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/17/2008 12:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBanshee

We are all dealt the hand we are given in life.


I used to believe this fully, now it is more of an option. I have not discounted the possibility of reincarnation, or that if it happens, we don’t get to pick who we become.
 
Adding; I'm finding the hand I was dealt wouldn't be so difficult, if it weren't for the fact that my teachers, had been expecting me to tie my shoes, after they had tied my hands behind my back. [8|]
 
I'm "charmd" I've gotten this far, many haven't been as furtunate.
 
quote:

Do with it what you will.  It isn't the hand you are given, but what you make of it.

 
Part of the reason I am unsure we don’t get to pick our own hand; I was dealt exactly what I needed; I only needed to appreciate the unfavorable for what it was, to be able to see the value.
 
k 




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/17/2008 1:32:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Our first Parents" probably indicates Adam and Eve, pointing to a religious upbringing.



Through whose perception?

quote:

The Creator bestowed knowledge, well that's just fine, WHERE IS IT ?


You post to this message board, how?

quote:

I dunno about you but I had to learn alot of shit in life, and a good part of it the hard way.


Yes, but thankfully, I can let it go now.

quote:

Talking about instinct ? Hell dogs have that.


Instinct for me was to react the way I orginaly had, being able to come to the conclussion I have above; is to be human.

quote:

I tried Christianity but it just wouldn't stick, but that doesn't mean the Bible has no wisdom. As I age, I start to see that some people express themselves metaphorically, and as far as I can see, Bible writers had a streak of this a mile wide.  This is not a good thing, because the world is very confused because of it.


Are you right or left handed?

quote:

However I can answer the original question believe it or not. Bad exists because without it good would not exist. If you want to take it in religious terms, without the devil there could be no God.


I believe this answer is reliant on what one believes “God” is. I prefer creator, because I do not know what the opposite of what I believe the creator consist of.
 
I can say, however, I believe its intent is love. Not the mushy stuff, (I think that's more likely passion, people confuse for love) but the very core of what it means to love.
 
If I have done my literary mathmatics correctly; the motto, “Liberty and Justice for All”, translates to “love all”.

quote:

In short, getting philosophical on you here ; If the picture is all white, there is no picture.


Unless the background has color; what does it have to do with the price of eggs in China?

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We define good as "not bad".


Not me.

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If there is no bad to be not, how could we be good ?


Think “purposeful”.

k




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/17/2008 1:57:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Of course if man did not have a god he would create one :)


I have a very logical explanation for believing there is a creator, to back up that which I feel.

quote:

In the creation of gods it all started way back when the trogladites roamed the earth.


The fact that the stories are embellished to great extent, does not mean there is not truth in them.
 
However, I believe a good majority of the “teachings” of The Bible, are more like warnings, twisted into laws.
 
For instance, the whole it is wrong to be naked thing. I think we were being warned… think what it would be like to run around naked in today’s world, where many have a hard time not touching what isn’t theirs to touch. If someone doesn’t like what you look like, you could be killed; being naked might only give them more to not like.

quote:


When the sun came up they could see and felt safe and warm and cozy and when they sun went down they were scared and cold and fearfful of being eaten by wild creatures.

Sooooooo  I like the sun and light and I dislike the darkness and the cold.  

Hence the birth day of good and bad.


No argument there.[:)]
 
k




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/17/2008 2:38:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Sometimes you have to be bad to do good. Instead of good verses bad, there comes a time when you need something that's more bad than the old bad. As the old saying goes, "I do bad things in the name of good."


Is this English? It’s all I speak.
 
Except for that one phrase in Italian, but I don’t know how to spell it, and it wouldn’t be very polite to say. [:(] 
 
k [:)]




Termyn8or -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 12:53:19 AM)

Well now I got you dancing. That is what you are doing, but I am not saying it is a bad thing.

Looking back I do see that my post was provocative. I do not consider it beligerant, but I am not everybody.

However there is a flaw in your point, well your response.

"Think “purposeful”. "
 
By that, you state that unpurposeful is bad. Maybe not in so many words, but the allusion is there. Actually I agree. But that was not the subject.
 
What I tried to express is that we could never define light if there had never been darkness. There has to be something to compare it to, without that, the concept never emerges. If it is not ever expressed, it is never defined.
 
Bad is a word. A word is a tool of expression. Perhaps it is that which we seek to define. I am not agreeing nor disagreeing. Why does it exist ?
 
Well we have some white paper, why does toner or ink exist in our printers, why do we have pencils ? A sheet that is all white is called blank, and that word comes from roots that mean white. Without contrast there is no picture, there are no words, there is no nothing, period.
 
And if you are religious (doesn't seem so but we are in public here) answer me this. Who created the devil ? Why in the hell would our God create a devil ?
 
I can tell you why, even though this is outside my normal bounds.
 
God would only create a devil for one reason, to test us. Put it this way, if there are no bad choices to make, how would he know if you are good ? You have to have the choice to do wrong, but then refuse to do so. If you never have the option, how do YOU even know about yourself ?
 
Maybe this concept is too difficult to express. Maybe I am nuts and should be locked up. Maybe who knows.
 
T




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 1:11:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Good and bad are not as easily defined as some would think. Consider this :

A lion eats a llama. he chases it down, tackles it and immediately, while it's still alive, tearing away at it's flesh.

Eating it's internal organs while it's heart still beats.

So is life evil ?

And notice that evil is live spelled backwards.

There is more terrible shit happening on this planet than you (or I) have the stomach for, believe me. You really don't want to get me started on that, it would take a website by itself.

T
Damn, that is profound. 




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 1:15:09 AM)

cpK: "Part of the reason I am unsure we don’t get to pick our own hand; I was dealt exactly what I needed; I only needed to appreciate the unfavorable for what it was, to be able to see the value."
 
Karmic Wisdom. Which I am just beginning to grasp it even exists.




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 5:54:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Well now I got you dancing. That is what you are doing, but I am not saying it is a bad thing.


T, I’ve been dancing all my life; I’ve just been trying to do the steps meant for others, and tripping up because of it, a lot.

quote:

Looking back I do see that my post was provocative. I do not consider it beligerant, but I am not everybody.


Just glad I got through.

quote:


However there is a flaw in your point, well your response.

"Think “purposeful”. "

By that, you state that unpurposeful is bad.



Maybe not in so many words, but the allusion is there. Actually I agree. But that was not the subject.


Actually, I would say, “unbeneficial to the goal”.
 
Everyone gets to choose, but no one should be surprised if in their choice, they have invoked the need to be responsible, in someone else.
 
The problem seems to lie in thinking we have too much responsibility in some areas, where we have none, but show little in others, where it is all us.
 
The thing is; I would be hard pressed to determine someone to be without purpose. Even someone who is going against the goal, has purpose as an example.

quote:

What I tried to express is that we could never define light if there had never been darkness. There has to be something to compare it to, without that, the concept never emerges. If it is not ever expressed, it is never defined.
 
 
Darkness is not bad (unbenificial), it has purpose. People called it bad because they were afraid of it.
 
The creator is not “good” nor “bad”; but purposeful.
 
quote:

Bad is a word. A word is a tool of expression. Perhaps it is that which we seek to define. I am not agreeing nor disagreeing. Why does it exist ?

It is a word created by man....

quote:

Well we have some white paper, why does toner or ink exist in our printers, why do we have pencils ? A sheet that is all white is called blank, and that word comes from roots that mean white. Without contrast there is no picture, there are no words, there is no nothing, period.


If I remember correctly, one can use something like lemon juice, to write a message; when dry, it is invisible; wet the paper, and presto. (probably irrelevant)
 
White is the lack of color. Just because something is white does not mean there is nothing there to see.
 
Have you ever looked really close at a piece of paper?
 
quote:

And if you are religious (doesn't seem so but we are in public here) answer me this. Who created the devil ? Why in the hell would our God create a devil ?


I would have to know how you define "religious" to answer that, but probably not by most standards.
 
In the terms it is thought of today, man.
 
I have traced the meaning of the word “satan” (it’s a neat story), it basically means opposition or one whom opposes.
 
There was also something about the word dragon meaning watcher, but I can't remember what, if any, the connection is between that and the other two. 

quote:

I can tell you why, even though this is outside my normal bounds.

God would only create a devil for one reason, to test us. Put it this way, if there are no bad choices to make, how would he know if you are good ? You have to have the choice to do wrong, but then refuse to do so. If you never have the option, how do YOU even know about yourself ?


When asked, most people know what the purpose of the creator is, even if they don’t believe it themselves, they know what someone who does believe would say.
 
The opposite of that, is the opposition’s goal.

quote:

Maybe I am nuts and should be locked up. Maybe who knows.
 

The fact that you are considering it is an indication, you will most likely be fine.
 
k




cjan -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 9:48:31 AM)

Very interesting points of view on an age old and fascinating topic.

Years ago, talking with a well known and respected Zen Master ( a roshi), a man who was a court reporter at both the Nuremburg and Japanese war trials after WW2, I asked him what he thought about evil as he witnessed it and how, for example, it's currently occuring in so many places around the world on a large and "small " scale. How is it that people seem to so easily ready to kill, rape, torture their neighbors, etc.? He answered, so calmly, that the evil that people do is "mundane"., as he put it. It stunned me and still does.

Great topic. Thank you , OP.




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 11:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Very interesting points of view on an age old and fascinating topic.

 
Would you believe I found many of the connecting pieces to put it all together, shortly after I arrived here?

quote:

He answered, so calmly, that the evil that people do is "mundane"., as he put it. It stunned me and still does.


Interesting, in my understanding, these things happen because people do not, simply put, love themselves. To me, that is sad.

quote:

Great topic. Thank you , OP.


 
My pleasure.
 
k




Termyn8or -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 12:24:57 PM)

I'm still digesting this but I thought I would mention that white is not the absence of color, black is. White is a balance of all colors. In the case of sunlight or incandescent light it is many many colors, almost all of them in sunlight. From a flourecent light you get a balance of three or four colors that appears almost white. In the case of a TV set white is a balance of three primary colors. In some very rare cases more like in some DLPs.

When your printer prints something, all it does is subtract color. While a TV uses additive colors, mainly the primary ones, a printer uses the complementary colors because it is subtractive. Most printers use four, some only use three, some actually use seven.

It's clear now that this analogy isn't really expressing what I want to get across. I'll think something else up. Gimme a little time.

T




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 12:35:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I'm still digesting this but I thought I would mention that white is not the absence of color, black is. White is a balance of all colors.


My apologies, I grabbed what I said off of “word” real quick.
 
My main point was; just because something can not be seen, or not in an obvious manner, does not exclude it from existing.
 
Then I stepped over my head.
 
Thanks for pulling me out.
 
k




meatcleaver -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 12:47:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

 
Ever since, man has been regretting that request and blaming the creator for it.
 


There is no creator making judgements, good and bad (I'm assuming you mean in the sense of good and evil) are human constructs. They are tools we use to help limit conflicts. It can be no accident that what we broadly recognize as good and bad (in the sense I am assuming you mean), cuts across every culture which implies it is somehow hardwired into us and is probably a tool we use to reduce conflicts within our species and so help us survive. Like all things, life is too complex to distill behaviour down to such limited gverning factors but our perception of good and bad plays its part.




Stephann -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 2:15:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira

My theory;
 
Once upon a time, my first parents made a request of their creator. They asked to behold the knowledge of all that exist. The creator, decided this would be beneficial to the goal, and so agreed.
 
Ever since, man has been regretting that request and blaming the creator for it.
 
The irony here, is that it is doubtful the same people that do this, would just hand a curious two year old, a firearm, and tell 'em to "have at it", simply because it wanted to know of it.
 
Just sayin’
 
k


I'm quite pleased our creator endowed us with the capacity to know wrong, so that we might also know right. 

I'd also gladly hand a 2 year old a shotgun.  I'd just make sure the chamber was empty first.  Children aren't afraid of things they understand; they're afraid of what they don't understand.

Ironically, the same is generally true of handing a shotgun to an adult who's also never held one.

Stephan




charmdpetKeira -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 6:44:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
I'm quite pleased our creator endowed us with the capacity to know wrong, so that we might also know right. 

 
My equivalent to this; I am glad our creator allowed us free choice.

quote:

I'd also gladly hand a 2 year old a shotgun.  I'd just make sure the chamber was empty first.  Children aren't afraid of things they understand; they're afraid of what they don't understand.


My bad, I left out the word loaded.

I have no problem with youngsters handling firearms either, and believe it is beneficial they learn to respect then as early as possible.

quote:

Ironically, the same is generally true of handing a shotgun to an adult who's also never held one.


Not so very, it was my point. Only, I fumbled, thank you for picking it up.
 
The reference to “2 yr old” was intended toward their common curiosity and often over zealousness toward satisfying those curiosities; not the actual age.
 
I hope I've explaind myself a little better.
 
My  best,
 
k




Termyn8or -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 11:13:38 PM)

I think we mucked it up a bit here. We are now talking about 2 year olds and guns. I guess it is not for me to say since I did not start the thread, but I think we have meandered a bit too far. Just my opinion.

I was going to try to come up with some really good moral questions right now, but found it difficult. Certain situations morality is overridden, but that in and of itself does not constitute bad.

It seems to me that we have not yet really defined bad. Killing someone ? What if they were trying to kill you ? Steal from someone who stole from you ? While the latter might be considered revenge, why is it bad ? You should be able to walk up to them and say "Payback's a bitch ain't it ?".

And I am finally admitting this, at least here, that I have used the powers that be against someone. You just don't realize, you could never know without really knowing me just how much that goes against the very grain of my character, but under certain circumstances, it is all out the window. Guy abuses my sister when they live together, she moves back to Mom's and he breaks in and terrorizes them. He is ruined. I think he is still under surveilance to this day, and that was over twenty years ago.

Was that bad ?

Now comes the question, if that was bad, what would be the good thing to do ?

Until I get a valid answer to that, I only assume that if there is no choice, good and bad have no definition.

I could not just go over the guy's house and kick his ass, I was under extreme suspicion. After that one day, I knew he was connected. If anything happened to him I would be the first one they would be looking for. Actually I wish they would've called me that day instead of the cops, but it was an apartment and just not the greatest idea.

Wanna know what I would've done ? I would've brained him real good with something, knocking him out and then I would break both of his legs and throw him out the fucking window through which he came. THEN call the cops and say "Looks like a corpse laying on the ground" and let them figure out who he is. Sure "Looks like Bob".

Nothing more.

Is that bad ?

What is bad ? how about prosecutors knowing they are prosecuting an innocent Man, yet proceeding anyway ?

What about the use of depleted uranium weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan ?

What about the bombing of Dresden after the war ?

What about alot of things ?

Perhaps what I am getting at, and I am thinking this as I go along, perhaps we should endevor to define good, and then derive the meaning of bad from that.

Does anyone have any examples of good ? Love to hear them.

T




Rule -> RE: Why there is “Bad” (3/18/2008 11:51:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
I have not discounted the possibility of reincarnation, or that if it happens, we don’t get to pick who we become.

The God of the Dead reincarnates us according to our merits. According to the ancient Egyptians, though, some evil souls after death are devoured by the beast of the desert and thus lost forever. However, I do not think that most evil souls are destroyed; many may even be rewarded for a job well done. The zebra may regard the lion as being evil for killing zebra's, but nevertheless for the health of the herd of zebra and of the ecology it is necessary for the lion to exist. The soft throat of the zebra on the other hand enables the zebra to have a quick and merciful death when taken by the lion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
I'm "charmd" I've gotten this far, many haven't been as furtunate.

Part of the reason I am unsure we don’t get to pick our own hand; I was dealt exactly what I needed; I only needed to appreciate the unfavorable for what it was, to be able to see the value.

I am interested in your story. If not here, then perhaps in a cmail on the other side?


quote:

ORIGINAL: charmdpetKeira
I believe this answer is reliant on what one believes “God” is. I prefer creator, because I do not know what the opposite of what I believe the creator consist of.

The Creator is one of the primary incarnate gods.




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