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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 10:52:00 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I define Darwin's Delusion and point out that he, Darwin, made a quite unjustified leap of faith when extrapolating from relatively minor physical difference to the emergence of new species.

DomKen then says of me...Now you want major morphological change

Of course I do . Darwinism concerns itself with the origins of ants elephants sharks man whales etc etc ad infinitum. Rather significant morphological (body characteristics) differences  dont you think ? 

The fact that I didn't know the difference between allotropic speciation and puncuated equilibrium  alters the principle I am putting forward not a jot. Not one teensy weensy jot.lol

According to Dawkins in the extended 'significant pause' clip the roots of speciation took place long before herds of existing species A could slowly morph via variant AB even more slowly into new species C.
That's what he inadvertantly  implied. Oh yes he did.

DomKen I think you should take a critical look at the interpretation of the facts you have at your fingertips.
If you need to regurgitate them to pass an exam then do so but at the same time be a critic and recognise that you are being fed a load of codswollup.
adding: If you are teaching this stuff than I forgive you and recognise that we all have to make compromises as we pass thru' this life.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/21/2008 11:09:04 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 11:17:13 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Seeks the entire system is not fully understood.  There are still parts where sceince has to say "something like this must have happened".  But what has been figured out works pretty well.   It is true that a lot of people do really only have a basic idea of what evolution is, and may say things that are not exactly right (again we don't have to theorise about an isolated population living in extreme cold, we can look at the Inuit.  They did not turn white or become fat. If they did not have tools and fire, they would have died(which was a struggle they dealt with almost every moment of every day up till now), not evolved. )  This does not affect the value of the real study being done by experts, and their theories.   The same thing applies to a lot of things.  Most people only have a child like concept of theology, it's not something they care to become an expert in.  History gets the same effect.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 3/21/2008 11:18:55 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 11:19:02 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		No, what you're doing is moving the goalposts. If I post a sequence of fossils that show a real morphological change, the reptilian jaw to the mammalian ear for instance you'll then argue for more detail or dismiss it in some other way without actually dealing with the facts shown in the series. Just as you did when I provided you with examples of speciation after you demanded them.

You claimed that something was one thing when it was another. I corrected you and pointed out and patiently explained both why you were wrong and why both allotropic speciation and PE were valid biological hypotheses. You have no response so you pretend your original strawman attack against PE is somehow valid despite my already showing that it isn't.

Now I'll explain this again since you're confusing issues again. Mutations are happening all the time, statistically every person has 6 point mutations in difference with both their parents. They accumulate in a populations genome, even harmful ones tend to spread somewhat unless they are instantly lethal which is rare witness various genetic diseases. When a population undergoes a change in environmental selective pressure, PE, the population may change quickly, geologically speaking, as natural selection works to filter that population for traits better suited for the new environment.  Or sometimes a population becomes isolated in some way from a parent population, for instance a river that the organism cannot cross changes course after a flood or earthquake as appears to have happened not that long ago with the Congo river and the two species of chimpanzees which exclusively appear on either side of the river, in which gradual changes accumulate until the organisms are now two different species.

Seeks, this is my life long hobby I've studied the matter in depth and have seen the fossils and read the gene charts myself. The evidence is beyond doubt. Universal common descent is a fact. The theory of evolution is the best and unchallenged explanation for the diversity of life on earth. I take you on primarily to make sure no one else is fooled that your BS is the truth or unchallenged.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 12:43:34 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		DomKen tells me off 'cos he is convinced that evolution has proved that the reptilian jaw evolved into the mammals ear and I didn't kow tow and immediately agree with him.
Humans are mammals are they not so lets take a look at the human ear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a2aoZeZhZ8&feature=related
Those three bones that form a ball and socket arrangement are what is supposed to have evolved.
Note also that these bones are part of a miraculous system that results in humans being able to hear.
As usual evolutionists conveniently forget the difficult bits like the organ of Corti the neural pathways and the brain function all of which go to produce hearing and all of which must have evolved seperately in time sequence.Each by itself doing not a lot.
How likely is that ?
Part of the human thigh comprises a ball and socket arrangement. Do evolutionists claim this also evolved from the reptilian jaw.?
Only Arskin'
Another point: the similarity, reptilian jaw/mammal ear was first noticed before the Darwin Delusion hit the news stands and represents a coincidence uncovered by investigative comparative anatomy.
Evolution be buggered !


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/21/2008 1:14:35 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 1:06:53 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

DomKen tells me off 'cos he is convinced that evolution has proved that the reptilian jaw evolved into the mammals ear and I didn't kow tow and immediately agree with him.
Humans are mammals are they not so lets take a look at the human ear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a2aoZeZhZ8&feature=related

Those three bones that form a ball and socket arrangement are what is supposed to have evolved.
Note also that these bones are part of a miraculous system that results in humans being able to hear.
As usual evolutionists conveniently forget the difficult bits like the organ of Corti the neural pathways and the brain function all of which go to produce hearing and all of which must have evolved seperately in time sequence.Each by itself doing not a lot.
How likely is that ?

Strangely reptiles only have one bone in their ear, the stapes, but have lots of bones in their jaws. Mammals have one bone in the lower jaw but 3 bones in each year. This article will show the evolutionary sequence from fossils which are identfied and sourced for anyone wanting to research further. This includes the development of the mammalian jaw joint right beside the reptilian jaw joint and the clear reduction in size of those jaw bones and their shifting into the ear.

quote:

Part of the human thigh comprises a ball and socket arrangement. Do evolutionists claim this also evolved from the reptillian jaw.?
Only Arskin'

strawman.

quote:

Another point: the similarity, reptillian jaw/mammal ear was first noticed before the Darwin Delusion hit the news stands and represents a coincidence uncovered by investigative comparative anatomy.
Evolution be buggared !

And no one really knew what to make of it. Without and until the theory of evolution it made no sense. That is what foundational theories in the various sciences do, they allow the collected data to be made sense of. The theory of evolution is to biology as atomic theory is to chemistry and quantum mechanics and relativity are to physics.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 1:21:52 PM   
puppy4owner


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Status: offline 		yes, evolution has been proven through many different fields of science about as well as anything can be proven-even the church had to backpedal on evolution. Its real,it happened,its happening now.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 1:47:31 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
As usual evolutionists conveniently forget the difficult bits like the organ of Corti the neural pathways and the brain function all of which go to produce hearing and all of which must have evolved seperately in time sequence. Each by itself doing not a lot.
Evolution does not work like that, seeks. Nearly all evolution starts with very slight benefits and only accelerates with ever larger benefits as time elapses.
Jaw bones will vibrate in response to sound; after all that is what ear bones do also; as well the jaws and teeth of porpoises conduct the sound of their echolocation. Nerve sensors will detect such vibrations. Consequently a mutation that confers the slightest benefit in improving hearing in a reptile will be selected for by natural selection and the evolution of the mammalian ear will take off, involving all of the apparatus, some perhaps a bit later in time, but eventually all coevolving.

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/21/2008 1:48:11 PM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 2:18:57 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

seeks
Another point: the similarity, reptilian jaw/mammal ear was first noticed before the Darwin Delusion hit the news stands and represents a coincidence uncovered by investigative comparative anatomy. 
quote:

DomKen
Without it and until the theory of evolution it ( the coincidence) made no sense.
This is not the application of the scientific method it is casting around to find things that fit, after the event. 
The underlying methodology of the Darwinian Delusion.

Rule's little story is a perfect example. He proceeds as follows....
He describes that hearing has advantage.
He knows evolution is true.
Therefore this is how hearing developed in mammals. Circular or what ?

Why should auditory nerves just happen to develop where they would be of most use.?
This is only likely tho' still almost impossible if there is a tendency in mammals for auditory nerves to develop every where.
In your heart of hearts you know I am right. Its time to admit it !

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 2:46:28 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Why should auditory nerves just happen to develop where they would be of most use.?
This is only likely tho' still almost impossible if there is a tendency in mammals for auditory nerves to develop every where.
In your heart of hearts you know I am right. Its time to admit it !


Where do you think auditory nerves are located? In the ear right? Now put a finger on you cheek and find your, mammalian, jaw joint. Is it more than a fingers breadth from your ear canal? If it is you didn't find the joint. Now why is it impossible that a mechanical vibration in the air might be picked up in jaw bones and that vibration be passed to the auditory nerve? If you're not aware snakes have been shown to hear in exactly this manner.

So we have reptiles with typical reptilian jaws that definitely involve the jawbones in hearing and mammals with those same bones much reduced and now in the inner ear instead being in the back of the lower jaw. That could just be conincedence but what if we find a chronological sequence of fossils that show reptiles with progressively more mammal like characters besides these bones showing a steady transformation of these bones out of the jaw and into the ear.  That's a lot of smoke for there to be no fire.

In your heart of hearts you know I am right. Its time to admit it !

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 3:22:46 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
This is not the application of the scientific method it is casting around to find things that fit, after the event. 
The underlying methodology of the Darwinian Delusion.
It is called making sense of things, seeks. It is what happens every time that a better hypothesis is formulated: it makes more sense of already known facts than the previous hypothesis. Besides that the theory of evolution has predictive value. When faced with any problem in biology it is possible to make a prediction about what one does not know, next do a literature search for what one expects and then find the expected information, as a consequence of making a previously unsuspected connection between separate phenomena. I have done so several times myself, though I cannot give examples. I do know that it does work.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Rule's little story is a perfect example. He proceeds as follows....
He describes that hearing has advantage.
He knows evolution is true.
Therefore this is how hearing developed in mammals. Circular or what ?
You have it backwards, seeks. Evolution is the inescapable consequence of the evolution algorithm. It is as unrelenting as any mathematical algorithm.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Why should auditory nerves just happen to develop where they would be of most use?
Indeed, seeks, why? Why do some species of insects have their hearing sensors in their legs?
Ears arise where they are of most use - whether that is in the skull or in the legs or wherever - because that is the opportune location where their benefit is most effective and thus where natural selection is most effective.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
This is only likely tho' still almost impossible if there is a tendency in mammals for auditory nerves to develop every where.
Well, there is. Any nerve may evolve into an auditory nerve. Any auditory nerve may grow to a weird location in the body. In principle. Biophysiologists and developmental biologists and psychologists have done all kinds of weird experiments with nerve growth.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In your heart of hearts you know I am right. Its time to admit it!
Sorry seeks, you have not convinced me.
 

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 4:13:51 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Rule I will give you 10 out of 10 for your command of English and 0 out of 10 for the rigour underlying your intellectual approach to difficult problems.
Wake up man, chance processes have brought about the transcendental achievements of the human brain ?
Shit this just sank in to my aclohol raddled brain...
quote:

Evolution is the inescapable consequence of the evolution algorithm.
That describes the perfect circle.Rule, the perfect dielectic circle.

[Mod Note:  TOS violation removed]


< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 3/21/2008 4:43:15 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 4:28:38 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Rule I will give you 10 out of 10 for your command of English
Thank you, seeks, that is high praise for someone like me who is not a native speaker.
Praise yourself lucky that you have not yet heard my pronunciation, though.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
and 0 out of 10 for the rigour underlying your intellectual approach to difficult problems.
lol. I may lack the rigour, nut that is compensated by the fact that I am always right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Wake up man, chance processes have brought about the trancendental achievements of the human brain ?
Nope, seeks, the algorithm of evolution did.
 
As for the trancendental achievements of my non-human brain, it arose as a result of Divine intervention by means of "chance processes". So if that is possible, then the chance processes that occurred during evolution as well.

[Mod Note:quoted TOS violation removed]


< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 3/21/2008 4:43:55 PM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 4:35:36 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

Evolution is the inescapable consequence of the evolution algorithm.

That describes the perfect circle.Rule, the perfect dielectic circle.
There is the process and the causal result of the process. How is that circular?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 5:17:09 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		The Bible  records the truth. Adam and Eve were the first humans. So it is  written in the Bible. Therefore Adam and Eve must have been the first humans because the Bible is true.

Evolution  describes the truth of the origin/development of species..  Mammals' hearing developed from reptilian structures This must be the case because evolution decrees it to be so and evolution describes the truth of the origin/development of species.
By Evolution I speak of the Darwinian Delusion.
Get it ?
Put another way: speculative hypothesis is raised  by circular reasoning into the realm of proven scientific explanation     
This is so accurate I think I deserve a beer or the Nobel prize for debunking spurious   pseudo science.         

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/21/2008 5:30:46 PM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 6:27:44 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		So how do you explain the correlation between specific fossils and specific geological layers? How do you explain the enormous number of species of Drosophila flies on the Hawaiian islands? Why are the earbones of mammals homologous to the jaw bones of reptiles? Why indeed are the bones in the skeletons of all mammals homologous?
 
Without the theory of evolution biologists are faced with a puzzle of billions of pieces that does not make any sense at all. The theory of evolution enables them to do away with that mess and replaces it by one beautiful picture in which all the billions of pieces fit accurately. Beauty is truth, seeks.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 6:52:25 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Evolution  describes the truth of the origin/development of species..  Mammals' hearing developed from reptilian structures This must be the case because evolution decrees it to be so and evolution describes the truth of the origin/development of species.
By Evolution I speak of the Darwinian Delusion.
Get it ?
Yes, I get it.
 
Mammals' hearing shows homology to reptilian structures. Fossil evidence shows a gradual change of these reptilian jaw bones changing into mammalian hearing bones. The evidence is such that it is assumed / concluded that such a change did indeed occur. A mechanism has been deduced that enables such a change to occur. This mechanism is called evolution through natural selection. This mechanism explains all of the mysteries that caused biologists head-aches before and has the added benefit that it has predictive value. All elements of this mechanism have been proven to exist. For these reasons it is assumed that the mechanism is valid.
 
I get that you err in that you believe that evolution biologists contend that it is proven that evolution occurs and that it is proven that this evolution occurs by the algorithm described by the theory of evolution. Well, it is not: it is assumed. Just like it is assumed that a layer of rock with fossils of type X that is found in location A is the same age as another layer of rock with fossils of type X that is found in location B.

Scientists make such assumptions because students are lazy and prefer to solve a problem in a couple of minutes rather than to labour on it for days, months or years at a time. It is for the same reason that the nonsensical cipher zero was introduced in mathematics. It is very well possible to perform calculations without the number 0 - but that is a pain in the ass and lazy students instead prefer to sit on their bum without the pain.

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/21/2008 7:40:00 PM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 7:47:43 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The Bible  records the truth. Adam and Eve were the first humans. So it is  written in the Bible. Therefore Adam and Eve must have been the first humans because the Bible is true.

Evolution  describes the truth of the origin/development of species..  Mammals' hearing developed from reptilian structures This must be the case because evolution decrees it to be so and evolution describes the truth of the origin/development of species.
By Evolution I speak of the Darwinian Delusion.
Get it ?
Put another way: speculative hypothesis is raised  by circular reasoning into the realm of proven scientific explanation     
This is so accurate I think I deserve a beer or the Nobel prize for debunking spurious   pseudo science.         
You lost the argument with your introduction of your "deus ex machina" bullshit. Well done, Ken.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 9:07:29 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I'll try another tack.

Did anybody notice a big press release about a fish with arms fossil that was found recently? Tiktaalik is the criters name. There is something remarkable about this fossil beyond filling in a gap between fish and tetrapods. It was found by a prediction made using the theory of evolution. Specifically the paleontologists involved wanted to find .an organism that would fill in the specific gap Tiktaalik fills. They knew where earlier and later organisms from the sequence were found so they started exaiming maps to find an exposed sedimentary layer from the right period in the right ancient geographic locations which turned out to be an unlikely place called Ellesmere Island in far northern Canada. So they spemnt several summers way up there searching the petrified river bottom for fossils. Eventually they found Tiktaalik, 20+ specimens to date, which had much more limblike front fins and the first neck of any organism. Right where the ToE predicted it would be.

A similiar issues surrounds whale evolution. For many years we had virtually nothing on whale evolution then an unmistakable ancestor of whales was found in Pakistan. Now knowing where to look scientists have found a large number of ancestral whales showing a clear progression from a hoofed carnivore inhabiting coastal areas to a fully marine primitve whale.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 11:41:46 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
You lost the argument with your introduction of your "deus ex machina" bullshit.

"deus ex machina" - the incarnate gods come down in a machine to solve the mess humans caused on Earth.
 
Ahem. Where is seeks solving the problem discussed in these pages like a god descended from above, Hk? Nothing like that in his quote. He is merely presenting a logical argument by analogy, arguing against scripture.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/21/2008 11:58:50 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		If the bones of the jaw and ear were the only evidence for evolution their correlation could well appear to be mere coincidence. There are many examples of contuinuity and adaptation of organs and other structures over wide taxonomic boundaries and over vast expanses of time, not only in chordates. Actually it happens from the Kingdom on down.

Evolution, as a theory, is corroborated by many lines of evidence in multiple fields - fossil, genetic and direct observation, for example. It doesnot live or die in a lizard's ear.


Z.

_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to DomKen)
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