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RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 9:31:35 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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Since you're the latest expert on the topic of welfare reform, O59, perhaps you could tell us the typical amount received as the result of an MFG waiver? Or simply what one is?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 81

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 9:48:53 PM

SinergyNstrumpet

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quote:

Medi-Cal insurance for 100% of her pre-natal health care, including vitamin supplements, and the delivery.Post-natal care, up to and including neo-natal intensive care if the baby is born prematurely. This will continue through regular checkups and vaccinations for the _____ up to about age 4.

Yes she would receive medical care for the child. What she will not receive is more cash aid to support that baby, nor will she receive additional food stamps. In some states she will not receive medical aid either

Infants take more money to support. Once a woman is on welfare, if she ever has anymore children after she enters the system intitially, she will not receive more aid for that child. It kinda makes abortion look like a better option than have the child.... going to one of the reasons women have abortions that Level posted Has all the children she wants, or as I would put it, all the children she can care for.

quote:

When she starts looking for work, there will be job training and child care stipends.

Quantify job training, stipulate what exactly you mean by that, because basically it involves a test to see if she is functionally literate and her personality attributes. There is no real "job training". There is no input about how to get financial aid for college... in fact women in the system are strongly encouraged not to pursue higher education. Basically there is some placement into low wage jobs, such as maid work, and the like... but good jobs that pay a living wage with benefits that can sustain a family are rarely offered to welfare recipients through the welfare system. Job training that leads to those sorts of jobs is not offered.

As far as child care stipends, these are only offered for the first year that a woman is working, and after that they are not given. Also, medical care is likewise not offered 18 months after the mother is working. Both of these things are crucial benefits to women living below the povery line in gaining access to a better life, yet they are not universally offered because mothers that live in rural areas cannot always find child care that is state approved, and it must be state approved in order to receive that benefit... in other words finding a neighbor to watch your kids is not acceptable, they must be in state approved daycare which is not accessable in many places... waiting lists also exist in other areas....

Lets go on to talk about the outlook for women who lose their mates to death instead of dissertion... if a woman is lucky enough to have a man die on her as opposed to leave her, she will get social security for the child until the child reaches adulthood instead of hoping the absent father will pay what he owes on time every month. The widow and orphan do not have to worry about how much she makes because she is allowed to make money without it being counted against her the way it would be if she was on welfare. There are no time limits to social security like there is to welfare. a Widow does not have to fear the state investigating her, searching her home for boyfriends that may or may not be there... nor does she have to account for every gift and item of jewelry she owns...

On the other hand if a welfare mother does get child support, it is confiscated by the state and a 50 dollar disregard is paid to the mother if the support was paid on time. She receives nothing for that month if the payment is late... in other words she is punished because the absent father is irresponsible. She must account for every dime and her life is an open book to the state.. I could go on

Now in my mind the entire system is puniitive.. if you are a child of an irresponsible parent, then you are not afforded the same sort of courtesy as an orphan.. kinda sad that the system rewards the children of the dead, but the children of the irresponsible can just go fuck themselves I guess. Now this is the type of culture that women are faced with bringing new life into, and we wonder why they would think twice about it?

Considering doing some academic work in this field, and I have done some ethnographic research with both social workers, and with welfare mothers.

Like I said, I am well prepared. I would like you to post some of your "loopholes" for me...I would love to pass them to mothers in the system...

julia

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 82

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 10:11:56 PM

DomKen

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Now go back and read all my posts in this thread. Find where I defined when life begins IMO. Coming up with anything?

Yes. In both your posts #22 and #36, you state the position that a fetus is not a person. In the absence of any other clarification, it seems you must be drawing your line when the fetus stops being one, otherwise known as birth.

Back in post #13, you refer to the fetus as "potential life." Not much a jump to say the position you have offered is that life begins at birth.

But a jump it is. Please don't whine about people responding to words you actually wrote and then put words into other people's mouths. It makes you look like a hypocrite.

BTW my position is that a fetus becomes a person when it woul be viable, without heroic assistance, outside the womb. Roughly 26 weeks after conception.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 83

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 10:13:51 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

That is because you are confused about the issue.

In the abortion debate, neither side is saying "Killing unborn babies is good!" It is a question of when life begins - what consistutes a human life as opposed to the possiblity of a human life. For example, in a fertility procedure, half a dozen fetuses are thrown away in favor of the one that is most viable. Would you then say that six murders were committed? Even the most ardent fundamentalists won't go that far. Most pregnancies end in miscarriage (also called spontaneous abortion) and the remains are flushed into the sewer with no birth certificate, death certificate, funeral, etc., so we know innately that a collection of cells does not a human being make. Do you equate taking a morning-after pill with the execution of an adult? It would be a waste of time, IMO, to bother discussing the subject with someone who would answer "yes" to that question.

         I do know people who go that far in their condemnation of abortion. I don't think trying to find that shred of common ground is ever a complete waste of time. I disagree with that position. But there is a line in there somewhere.

        Here in CA, we have a person named Scott Peterson, on death row. He was convicted of the murders of both his wife, Lacey, and his unborn son, referred to at trial by the name Connor. Peterson might go to the death chamber around the time his son would have graduated from college. I think he should, but doubt he will.

       The premeditated murder of his pregnant wife deserves the ultimate punishment.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to TracyTaken)

Post #: 84

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 10:51:21 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

Quantify job training, stipulate what exactly you mean by that, because basically it involves a test to see if she is functionally literate and her personality attributes. There is no real "job training". There is no input about how to get financial aid for college... in fact women in the system are strongly encouraged not to pursue higher education. Basically there is some placement into low wage jobs, such as maid work, and the like... but good jobs that pay a living wage with benefits that can sustain a family are rarely offered to welfare recipients through the welfare system. Job training that leads to those sorts of jobs is not offered.

          Julia, the function of the welfare system is not to elevate people from below poverty to a comfy middle-class. What an insult to those who work their asses off to make that jump. Poor people take crappy jobs, with no benefits all the time. When they've honed such important skills as 'showing up on time every day,' they go get better jobs. Ever run across the "cargo" mythology in your studies? It don't work that way.

         I'm sorry here, but did I hear you bitching that welfare won't pay your way to a four year degree??? Damn fucking right it won't!



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SinergyNstrumpet)

Post #: 85

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 11:07:13 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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That's lovely, Ken. Now please read back and find where I even implied that life begins at orgasm.

Your stated position about drawing the line brings us back to the original question. If someone opposes the death penalty on the grounds that is wrong to kill, wouldn't aborting beyond that line be equally heinous? If there are different grounds for opposing the death penalty, the question becomes moot.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 86

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/16/2008 11:20:10 PM

cjan

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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Nevermind.

< Message edited by cjan -- 3/16/2008 11:23:21 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 87

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 6:55:54 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's lovely, Ken. Now please read back and find where I even implied that life begins at orgasm.

Your stated position about drawing the line brings us back to the original question. If someone opposes the death penalty on the grounds that is wrong to kill, wouldn't aborting beyond that line be equally heinous? If there are different grounds for opposing the death penalty, the question becomes moot.

Still no actual acknowledgement that you were in the wrong.

You implied quite strongly that personhood begins at a time in pregnancy when abortion is legal, Roe v Wade does draw the line at viability so sometime before the third trimester, which it has been shown has no sharp dividing line between cells with the potential to be a person and some stage where those same collection of utterly dependent cells is definitely worthy of protection. You object to having it pointed out that every sperm and ova is a potential life in virtually the same way that an early stage embryo is. I see no problem with showing the flaw in your argument while you seem to demand to be able to mischaracterize others at will while having no one point out the failings of your arguments.

BTW nice death penalty strawman. Not my position not my problem to defend.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 88

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 10:28:10 AM

SinergyNstrumpet

Posts: 305
Joined: 2/26/2008
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quote:

I'm sorry here, but did I hear you bitching that welfare won't pay your way to a four year degree??? Damn fucking right it won't!

No, training to make a living wage so that kids will not live below the poverty line does not equate a 4 year degree, perhaps vocational training, like office work, computer training, or medical assistant. I find it very disturbing that we are willing to go to excessive lengths to gain nurses by recruitment from other countries, but we are unwilling to train those on welfare to do that work, or even inform them of how they can obtain financial aid separate from TANF programs.

You also confuse a living wage with a middle class wage. A living wage is a wage that a person can support the necessities of life with. A middle class wage is one in which a person has a surplus and can afford things like nice vacations every year, new cars, and a nice home... big difference between the two.

You know, welfare reform was suppose to create tax payers instead of tax drains, people working under the poverty line don't pay taxes, they just simply exist. In fact some of these women bearly exist, their children eventually are not eligible for medical assistance, or childcare subsidies, and WIC is only good for women that are pregnant and have kids below the age of 5 years old.

I have a friend that teaches school in Georgia... she has also taught in Tennessee, Texas, and Virgina in her career. In every school district but one that she taught in there were kids that went to school hungry... to me that is unacceptable, and it is like she always says, those on the right love all the babies until their born, and then once they are born they can starve for all they care. I suppose that is why I find much hypocrisy on the part of those who are pro-life and right wing, like you Rich, you love all the babies until their born, then screw the little bastards!

Like I said, I would love a world where abortion is unnecessary, but in a world that is increasingly intolerant toward women and children, I just don't see that as a reality any time soon...

julia

Edited to add... waiting for that loophole information you spoke of because it would be nice to relate it to women that do not know of it

< Message edited by SinergyNstrumpet -- 3/17/2008 10:29:04 AM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 89

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 11:48:30 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       This may not be so easy to answer. It may simply draw a bunch of nonsequitors about Refucklinazi's and how George Bush is a doo-doo head, but spring is a good time for hope, so I'll ask. Perhaps some few will provide honest answers about holding what seem to be mutually exclusive viewpoints at the same time.

     If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different?

     I'm genuinely curious here. I'm in favor of the death penalty more often than it is used, and I think the right side won the abortion battle in the 70's. I don't get how people oppose one and support the other.

Another thing I was thinking about the other day. I had driven down through serious hillbilly country. It seems almost every couple of miles there was an anti abortion sign or billboard cluttering up the scenery, which I find annoying. So, I get where I am going, a livestock salebarn. Scope out the merchandise and then find a comfy place to sit and watch the world go by until the auction began. As in all events of this sort, the usual ragtag bunch of kids all ages scuttling about. Parents only half paying attention to what their kids are doing. Quite a few Amish families scattered about also.

I started thinking, why is it that the population that condems abortion the loudest tend to treat their children the worst? Rarely needing an excuse to scream at them or backhand them. And the population that fights the hardest for abortion rights tends to treat their born children like spoilt brat princes and princesses that can do no wrong?

There is just so much irony in that general big picture I think.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 90

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 12:08:15 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       This may not be so easy to answer. It may simply draw a bunch of nonsequitors about Refucklinazi's and how George Bush is a doo-doo head, but spring is a good time for hope, so I'll ask. Perhaps some few will provide honest answers about holding what seem to be mutually exclusive viewpoints at the same time.

     If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different?

     I'm genuinely curious here. I'm in favor of the death penalty more often than it is used, and I think the right side won the abortion battle in the 70's. I don't get how people oppose one and support the other.

Another thing I was thinking about the other day. I had driven down through serious hillbilly country. It seems almost every couple of miles there was an anti abortion sign or billboard cluttering up the scenery, which I find annoying. So, I get where I am going, a livestock salebarn. Scope out the merchandise and then find a comfy place to sit and watch the world go by until the auction began. As in all events of this sort, the usual ragtag bunch of kids all ages scuttling about. Parents only half paying attention to what their kids are doing. Quite a few Amish families scattered about also.

I started thinking, why is it that the population that condems abortion the loudest tend to treat their children the worst? Rarely needing an excuse to scream at them or backhand them. And the population that fights the hardest for abortion rights tends to treat their born children like spoilt brat princes and princesses that can do no wrong?

There is just so much irony in that general big picture I think.

Hey all,

I didn't have time to look it up but I will attempt to paraphrase from a previous CuriousLord abortion thread....Do you have any idea to the number of pregnancies that end with a miscarriage?...I believe it is about 40%.

kind of hard to say at what moment life begins....But let's say it begins at conception. If it does, then I would insist that every woman who experiences a miscarriage would be investigated for the potential of committing manslaughter or embryoslaughter or whatever. You smoked or drank during your pregnancy? 10-15 years. You excercised or went to work after being informed that bed rest was necessary...10-15 years. You got pregnant in your fourties or when you were substantially over or under weight...10-15 years.

These murdering mothers have to be stopped...I'm sure you must be as outraged as I....What should we name our new unit?

Perhaps a pic of a miscarriage on the side of our "ride" might be a nice touch.

_____________________________

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Post #: 91

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 3:04:32 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

These murdering mothers have to be stopped...I'm sure you must be as outraged as I....What should we name our new unit?

Perhaps a pic of a miscarriage on the side of our "ride" might be a nice touch.

How about....Christians Against Pregnant Sluts

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2008 3:07:58 PM >

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 92

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 3:07:35 PM

domiguy

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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

These murdering mothers have to be stopped...I'm sure you must be as outraged as I....What should we name our new unit?

Perhaps a pic of a miscarriage on the side of our "ride" might be a nice touch.

How about....Christians Against Pregnant Sluts

C.A.P.S. And the "logo" would look cool on the side of my transam...Every CAPS officer is given a transam when sworn in.

_____________________________

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Post #: 93

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 3:08:09 PM

TracyTaken

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quote:

I didn't have time to look it up but I will attempt to paraphrase from a previous CuriousLord abortion thread....Do you have any idea to the number of pregnancies that end with a miscarriage?...I believe it is about 40%.

My biology teacher said more than 50% - and that woman is a Goddess who would never lie!

Seriously though, she said that most miscarriages are written off to "Oh, my period started," because they happen quite early on.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 94

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 3:22:06 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

quote:

I didn't have time to look it up but I will attempt to paraphrase from a previous CuriousLord abortion thread....Do you have any idea to the number of pregnancies that end with a miscarriage?...I believe it is about 40%.

My biology teacher said more than 50% - and that woman is a Goddess who would never lie!

Seriously though, she said that most miscarriages are written off to "Oh, my period started," because they happen quite early on.

"Oh, my period started" is exactly what I would expect a murderer to say.....Similar to "I was vacationing at the Hamptons" or "I was with my boyfriend." That shit simply doesn't fly out here.

I got to run...It seems we have a 482 in progress, embryo in distress, transpiring at Curves...(Domiguy jumps into his CAPS TransAm revs the engine and squeals his tires as he goes to apprehend an overweight, exercising mother)

"When will they ever learn?...Mother on baby crime is rarely reported and the death rate is staggering! We have got to round these bitches up before they kill all of the unborn...They are already responsible for nearly half of all pregnancies ending in murder.....MURDER!!!!"

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/17/2008 3:44:57 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 95

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 8:10:29 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline

        Julia, Julia, Julia... So much ignorance. Such a need to assign me my positions so you can label and negate me. For starters, I'm all in favor a woman's right to to terminate a pregnancy, just as I support the right of the state to execute murderers and serial violent sexual predators. The sacredness of life is not at the pinnacle of my values hierarchy.

       Your ideas of what is and isn't a middle-class income are shallow, ridiculous and mighty materialistic. I know people who maintain a very comfy lifestyle and travel widely on less than $10,000 a year for a couple, and people who earn over $200,000, but haven't got two nickels to rub together after they pay the bills they have run up. It's all about making smart choices with what you have, not waiting for the gov't to back up a dump truck full of my tax dollars at your door.

       As for those loopholes, you'll be waiting a long time to hear about them from me.  I love that we have a safety net in this country. I've even made use of it a few times in my life and know that it could be administered better than it is. Those who want it to be a hammock for their laziness, and expectation that someone else is responsible for the stupid choices they make, get no sympathy from me.

       But I'm in a generous mood, so I'll throw you something every one of your clients should understand. Paperwork. No excuses. Every item received in the mail is to be completed and turned in the day they get it. Late afternoon delivery means they are there when the doors open the following morning. Get a copy with a date stamp. Keep complete financial records and NEVER turn in an original pay or bank statement. They should keep a journal of every call, office visit and money/services received. They will have to work at this. Think of it as that good job-training you say doesn't exist.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SinergyNstrumpet)

Post #: 96

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 8:31:27 PM

SinergyNstrumpet

Posts: 305
Joined: 2/26/2008
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quote:

Julia, Julia, Julia... So much ignorance. Such a need to assign me my positions so you can label and negate me. For starters, I'm all in favor a woman's right to to terminate a pregnancy, just as I support the right of the state to execute murderers and serial violent sexual predators. The sacredness of life is not at the pinnacle of my values hierarchy.

Since I normally do not post on abortion topic threads, I suppose I assumed that you were prolife from what little you wrote on this one... if I was mistaken, my bad.

quote:

Your ideas of what is and isn't a middle-class income are shallow, ridiculous and mighty materialistic. I know people who maintain a very comfy lifestyle and travel widely on less than $10,000 a year for a couple, and people who earn over $200,000, but haven't g.ot two nickels to rub together after they pay the bills they have run up. It's all about making smart choices with what you have, not waiting for the gov't to back up a dump truck full of my tax dollars at your door

I do not know one person that makes so little and travels extensively with a lovely home on 10k a year. Is it possible? I suppose if they are retired, own their own home, have all the things they need paid for from years of making a middle class living... well yeah... that would be possible. If all a person had was energy costs, property tax based on what they paid for their home in 1912, and had investments... they might get by on 10k a year. Raise a family of 3 on that and be one of the working poor with the expenses of getting to work? Doubtful.

My definition of middle class is home ownership, car ownership, ability to pay for medical insurance, have enough to invest for retirement, and to keep a modest sized family.. with a little left over for fun.

My definition of a living wage is not the same as middle class. It is the ability to feed, clothe a family and keep a roof over their heads without having to skimp on food at the end of the month to do so. It is not necessarily having a disposable income. I believe anyone who works full time should make enough to maintain a home.

quote:

As for those loopholes, you'll be waiting a long time to hear about them from me. I love that we have a safety net in this country. I've even made use of it a few times in my life and know that it could be administered better than it is. Those who want it to be a hammock for their laziness, and expectation that someone else is responsible for the stupid choices they make, get no sympathy from me.

Yes, those who take advantage of the system not wanting others who come after them to do so... go you!

quote:

But I'm in a generous mood, so I'll throw you something every one of your clients should understand. Paperwork. No excuses. Every item received in the mail is to be completed and turned in the day they get it. Late afternoon delivery means they are there when the doors open the following morning. Get a copy with a date stamp. Keep complete financial records and NEVER turn in an original pay or bank statement. They should keep a journal of every call, office visit and money/services received. They will have to work at this. Think of it as that good job-training you say doesn't exist.

You know, that is not a loophole, and it is something that people already know.

BTW, these women are not my "clients", they would be called "informants". Also, I am really stubborn, and I was able to escape that system and get a 4 year degree... my goal is to one day establish a foundation to help women get their degrees instead of being forced off welfare into a job market that will not pay them enough to feed their kids nor keep a decent roof over their heads... but like I said, I am just stubborn like that

julia

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 97

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 8:53:16 PM

SugarMyChurro

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I just wanted to say that I agree with almost everything said by SinergyNstrumpet, and almost nothing said by TheHeretic.

or

, as the case may be...

(in reply to SinergyNstrumpet)

Post #: 98

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 9:07:22 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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A good example of why political discourse in this country is at an all-time low. If you think executing criminals and aborting embryos are comparable, there's no way to have a discussion with you. You're just taking an extreme position and daring someone to challenge you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 99

RE: Contradictory Dogma - 3/17/2008 9:27:42 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

I do not know one person that makes so little and travels extensively with a lovely home on 10k a year. Is it possible? I suppose if they are retired, own their own home, have all the things they need paid for from years of making a middle class living... well yeah... that would be possible. If all a person had was energy costs, property tax based on what they paid for their home in 1912, and had investments... they might get by on 10k a year. Raise a family of 3 on that and be one of the working poor with the expenses of getting to work? Doubtful.

     But you see, Julia, children are a choice. They couldn't live as they do if they had any, and they don't. Comfortable is a mighty relative term. While the view is stunning, their house would not meet your materialistic standards of "lovely." I would not choose to live without electricity and running water. They are quite comfortable with it.

      They are not retired by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, they work their asses off to live as they do, and could be making good money with such work ethics if they ever decide to come down off the hill.

      Measuring everything by your own petite bourgeoisie standards and opinions isn't productive, Julia. It's a great big world out there, and you aren't special.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SinergyNstrumpet)

Post #: 100

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