RE: Contradictory Dogma

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TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 9:32:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I just wanted to say that I agree with almost everything said by SinergyNstrumpet, and almost nothing said by TheHeretic. LOL. I find great comfort in that, Sugar.

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 9:49:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster A good example of why political discourse in this country is at an all-time low. If you think executing criminals and aborting embryos are comparable, there's no way to have a discussion with you. You're just taking an extreme position and daring someone to challenge you. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different? Pretending abortion is all about seven weeks worth of cell division is equally extreme, LAM. One of the most recent battles dealt with procedures that could be used into the eighth month. A specific method was outlawed, but the practice was not. I just might place a little wager that there more abortions past viability than there were executions in the US last year.

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 10:03:45 PM)
quote: While the view is stunning, their house would not meet your materialistic standards of "lovely. Now who is making assumptions of what my standards and ideals are. You really have very little idea of who I am or how materialistic I am. quote: They are not retired by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, they work their asses off to live as they do, and could be making good money with such work ethics if they ever decide to come down off the hill. Two people making 10k a year together that work their asses off... how is that possible for two people to make the minimum wage and make less than 10k a year if they are working full time? quote: Measuring everything by your own petite bourgeoisie standards and opinions isn't productive, Julia. It's a great big world out there, and you aren't special. This is just meant to be inflammatory and snarky because I have wiped the floor with you on this thread and exposed how little you know about the welfare system and how it works in this country after you purported to be well versed in its mechanisms and loopholes.. very cheap shot flame bait, and it frankly amuses me if you think this sort of language substitutes for anything like intellectual discourse... Hit me with your best shot, because frankly this was a lame one and I am sure you can do better julia

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 10:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet Two people making 10k a year together that work their asses off... how is that possible for two people to make the minimum wage and make less than 10k a year if they are working full time? Here is a nice example of your white-bread and soda pop values getting in the way of comprehension. Don't you think bringing in a long, cold, winter worth of wood for the stove is work? Or getting up at dawn to tend a garden and chickens? Or building a running car from two that don't? Minimum wage? What a narrow minded assumption. They make most of their annual cash in about 9 total weeks of assorted seasonal work. Wiped the floor... Ha. Been reading those power of positive thinking books again, huh? You started this little tangent with a claim that we had no welfare system, and wound up telling me all about the levels of care. Wouldn't that make your initial comment nothing but a damn snarky lie you thought you might get away with?

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 10:48:56 PM)
quote: Though we disagree on the line between murder and not murder I explained what kit is talking about way back on page 1 4th post. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1711785 There is no valid data that I am aware of that would imply a fetus is not sentient. How could anyone make that determination in the first place? I agree that is a life, and a human life at that. I suppose the question here is will we lower ourselves to the level of the beasts in the manner in which we govern ourselves in matters of life and death? I just saw this response to me because of your moderation status, sorry I missed it. Here is the deal, I do not think the beasts are so beastly. In fact many so-called beasts never murder anyone, they only kill for survival, and they do not go around taking more than they need. Now of course that isn't universal, I am just saying, being a beast isn't necessarily ethically inferior to being a person. Now being a sentient being is debatable. Since we cannot go into the uterus and interview a fetus, I suppose we will have to err on the side of a woman making a determination that her womb is or isn't suitable as an incubator for the life within her. Her choice, her womb. Even if a fetus is a sentient being, it is still my position that the government should not be able to compel anyone to serve as an incubator, even for their own offspring. Now I am not for late term abortion unless it can save the mother's life.... because if the child is viable outside the womb, it should be afforded a shot. In the extremely rare circumstances that a pregnancy is terminated late into the game to protect the mother, then that should be allowed... and there are some cases in which this is the case. I am not a religious person, nor at all a Christian. I respect other people's ideas about the soul and their religion, but that does not mean I accept legislating their morality based upon the belief that a first or second trimester fetus is sentient without an iota of proof to that is true. Have your belief, but stay out of my pussy. julia

SinergyNstrumpet -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/17/2008 10:51:31 PM)
quote: You started this little tangent with a claim that we had no welfare system, and wound up telling me all about the levels of care. Wouldn't that make your initial comment nothing but a damn snarky lie you thought you might get away with? The state of the welfare system as it exists today it is nonexistent for many people that use to be able to rely on it. julia edited to add quote: Here is a nice example of your white-bread and soda pop values getting in the way of comprehension. Don't you think bringing in a long, cold, winter worth of wood for the stove is work? Or getting up at dawn to tend a garden and chickens? Or building a running car from two that don't? Minimum wage? What a narrow minded assumption. They make most of their annual cash in about 9 total weeks of assorted seasonal work. Hmmmm... single moms should all run off to the hills, squat on property where they can grow their own food, and perhaps work only a couple of months a year to pay for things they cannot grow or build themselves... perhaps they should also keep their kids out of school to help with those chores... nice.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 1:22:29 AM)
I think that seasonal work frontiers-person scenario is supposed to appeal as some kind of mythic stereotype of the rugged individualism that made this country great. A Horatio Alger story of a kind - bootstrapping and loving it. Yee-Haw!!! As many have pointed out, this thread is about an extreme viewpoint taken by the OP in an attemp to lure others into pointless banter. I have been willing to spare it a comment or two, and I have read the more intelligent replies. But there is hardly anything like formal debate or even informal discussion at work here. People reply and then the OP comments from on high as if he had some kind of superior rhetorical position, which he doesn't. This thread is long since asked and answered. Having a coherent political worldview where individual rights actually make sense is certainly a step in the right direction. Connecting one's political views to religious or moral perspectives generally accepted as incoherent and false seems absurd to me. And I no longer understand the point of this thread except as some kind of absurd display of right-wing myths and an incoherent political philosophy.

BitaTruble -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 2:42:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I'm genuinely curious here. I'm in favor of the death penalty more often than it is used, and I think the right side won the abortion battle in the 70's. I don't get how people oppose one and support the other. I am pro-choice because I don't want anyone else to decide what happens with my womb. I'm against the death penalty for two reasons: one, because of statutes that allow someone to be put to death for crimes other than murder and two ... "In the past 30 years, 124 inmates were found to be innocent and released from death row." Celeste

Real0ne -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 3:51:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I think that seasonal work frontiers-person scenario is supposed to appeal as some kind of mythic stereotype of the rugged individualism that made this country great. A Horatio Alger story of a kind - bootstrapping and loving it. Yee-Haw!!! As many have pointed out, this thread is about an extreme viewpoint taken by the OP in an attemp to lure others into pointless banter. yup ohterwise known as a troll thread! LOL

Real0ne -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 3:52:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble "In the past 30 years, 124 inmates were found to be innocent and released from death row." Celeste Thr title sums it up nicely.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 7:12:26 AM)
And that would be pointless, since there is no way that you or I or any human being in the world would be able to determine who won that bet. Besides, are you opposed to abortion or late-term abortion? You've just changed the terms. You seem to think that anyone who is pro-choice believes that women should be free to have abortions under any circumstances and at any moment they choose. That's called a straw-man argument. Go on and keep fighting the good fight. I don't understand whom you think you're going to persuade with all this rhetoric, but you do seem to enjoy it. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I just might place a little wager that there more abortions past viability than there were executions in the US last year.

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 7:23:11 AM)
I disagree, Sugar. It's about extreme viewpoints taken by some which seem incompatible when placed side-by-side. Would you find the conversation so pointless if I had flipped the polarity in the OP and made it 'how can you oppose abortion on the grounds that life is sacred and still support the death penalty?' It would still be the same coin. Oh well. Quite the long day ahead of me.

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 7:31:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Besides, are you opposed to abortion or late-term abortion? Who says I'm opposed to either? If splitting those hairs gets you around the cognitive dissonance, so be it. Have a nice day, all.

kittinSol -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 7:43:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Would you find the conversation so pointless if I had flipped the polarity in the OP and made it 'how can you oppose abortion on the grounds that life is sacred and still support the death penalty?' It would still be the same coin. No, it's not the same coin. It's different currencies, actually. Opponents to the death penalty don't always argue from the obscure reasonning that all life is sacred; on the other hand, opponents to abortion rights base their argumentation on nothing other than their belief in the sanctity of life and on the right to life of the embryo or of the fetus. A right which, as you know, doesn't exist, since a pregnancy isn't a person. It is because opponents to abortion rights argue from the very premise that life is sacred, that when they support the death penalty, there's a major flaw in their argument, since they effectively scream in favour of legalised murder. People like that are sentimentally enclined and they don't think in depth about the issues at hand. They just react. Different currencies... a little like the dollar to the euro.

philosophy -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 9:20:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different? ....because the idea that they are the same thing is based on an assumption that an unborn fetus is the same as a born human. That assumption is highly contentious, with good arguments on both sides of the fence. However, there is no consensus on that issue. You wont find a similar fuzziness when it comes to murder.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 8:08:44 PM)
Are you arguing a point you actually believe in? I hate it when people try to state the most controversial fucking thing imaginable and then during the inevitable fall-out desperately try not to reveal what they actually believe. It's like the debate team from tenth grade. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Besides, are you opposed to abortion or late-term abortion? Who says I'm opposed to either?

dcnovice -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 8:45:57 PM)
quote: If having and using the death penalty makes the US uncivilized, no better than those we kill, why is easy access to abortion clinics any different? Rich --- I'm coming late to the discussion, so I apologize if I'm repeating points already made. I think you've pointed out one of many paradoxes surrounding the thorny issue of abortion. Others include liberals' reluctance to accord a human fetus the same status they might grant a spotted owl and conservatives' strange and sudden embrace of government involvement in one of the most intimate of all decisions. As one who dislikes the death penalty yet tends (somewhat reluctantly) toward the pro-choice side of the abortion debate, I see three important distinctions between the decision to end a pregnancy and the policy of executing criminals. (1) An unborn child is inescapably, physically entwined with another person (namely, his or her mother) in a way that a convicted criminal is not. Any decision made about the legal status of the child has an enormous impact on the personhood of the mother. My reluctance to criminalize abortion stems from the sad realization that granting the child an absolute right to life means shattering the mother's sovereignty over her own body and life. Recognizing a convicted criminal's right to life, in contrast, does not alter the sovereignty of another person. (2) There is an alternative to execution, life imprisonment without parole. In contrast, there is no alternative to abortion for ending an unwanted pregnancy. (3) Executions are carried out on my behalf. Abortions are not. Peace, DC

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/18/2008 11:55:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Are you arguing a point you actually believe in? I hate it when people try to state the most controversial fucking thing imaginable and then during the inevitable fall-out desperately try not to reveal what they actually believe. It's like the debate team from tenth grade. I stated my personal position in the original post, LaM. You won't even have to read back that far though, Bita quoted it right on this page of the thread. As to nobody being capable a settling my hypothetical wager, the link I posted (#102) estimated the US number for 1997 at slightly over 1000 post-viability abortions. Even if the outlawing of a particular procedure reduced that number by 90% (a very generous estimate), that is still more than twice the number of executions in 2007 . The '97 number is about 13 times the number of US executions in '98. Still no comparisons to be made? Distasteful as the process and implications are, I support the soveriegnty of a woman over her body to the point of allowing abortions right up to the point where you can just adopt out a preemie. So do I support the soveriegnty of society to take the lives, as punishment, of those who commit the most heinous of crimes. I want serial rapists back on the list. I know the system is as imperfect as the welfare department, but that is the nature of government (a good reason to oppose socialism). I don't want the wrong people convicted of ANY crime. If we need a new standard of proof in death penalty cases, then let's get busy.

TheHeretic -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/19/2008 7:08:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I think that seasonal work frontiers-person scenario is supposed to appeal as some kind of mythic stereotype of the rugged individualism that made this country great. A Horatio Alger story of a kind - bootstrapping and loving it. Yee-Haw!!! That's pretty funny, Sugar. Isn't this exactly the sort of lifestyle Abbie Hoffman was advocating? Free from the shackles of materialism and the evil corporate culture? Or is all that negated because they have a friend who believes different things than you? That's exactly the sort of doublethink I'm trying to get at with this thread.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Contradictory Dogma (3/19/2008 9:09:52 AM)
*~ Fast Reply ~* 'ya know, reading this thread from cover to cover it appears many of the posters are too close to the picture to take the obvious pragmatic compromise stance. Here it is... Abort all unwed babies, excuse me 'fetuses', who will have to rely on welfare assistance to thrive; and make pregnancy, outside the holy state of marriage, a capital offense. QED! Don't forget to color your Jesus eggs this weekend! Happy Easter (a/k/a Vernal Equinox) To All! I LOVE Easter. It gives me my annual opportunity to display my favorite 'lifestyle' joke... Why did Jesus die on the cross? (Watch out for lightning before reading further...) He forgot his safe-word!

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