RE: Reality versus Theory (Full Version)

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slaveboyforyou -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:06:56 PM)

Seeks as popeye stated, it's comparable to the U.S.  Of course that makes sense, since all states with the exception of Louisiana follow English common law.  The legal system is a club.  It's a club that you and I don't belong to.  The judges and lawyers play golf with each other in their offtime.  The higher ups in law enforcement play the system to make their lives easier.  They do not care about us.  They care about themselves, and they manipulate the law to suit their own ends.  Most of their objectives lay in sloth and greed.  They do not want to do any more work than they have to, but they want to get paid the same.  If you and I are unfortunate enough to find ourselves in a courtroom, we are merely visitors.  They view us a rubes, and they want to shuffle us through the system as fast as they can, while emptying our pockets as efficiently as possible.   




Aneirin -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:12:12 PM)

Ok, in reply to kittinsol, no, it is not a conspiracy, it is fact, the victims of crime in this country are getting very dissatisfied with the criminal justice system. More and more is it seen that the victim of a crime is totally disregarded, as if they are unimportant.

When a crime occurs to an individual, there are various bodies that help that victim deal with the trauma of what has happened, help them through the judicial process etc. I was last told, that there were some fifteen seperate organisations set up to help the criminal and their family, the majority of them public funded.Now for the victim exists 'victim support', a service staffed largely by volunteers, as this organisation is funded by charity donations.

Now, a victim can apply for compensation for their trauma, this takes the form of the 'Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2001', I said apply, because it is not just given, a victim has to apply and complete numerous sets of paperwork, prove their injuries and then wait eighteen months or more until they receive a decision, loss of life paying a standard amount of £11, 000 and each other claimant receiving £5,500. You will agree these paltry sums are hardly going to be of much use in a situation where some little bored yobbo and his mates kick a father to death for being asked to stop doing what they are doing.

Oh and in most cases, a criminal facing court gets legal aid to pay for their defence,depending on the severity of their offence, this may include a barrister. The victim, if working, is generally not in a position to afford legal representation, and because they are working, are not entitled to legal aid , which incidently is paid for by the tax payer.

And so we get back to criminals and the laws set up to deter them. The criminal system in this country is weighted against the victim.Criminals found guilty of cold blooded  murder, are out of jail within seven years or so, this might be to do with the prisons being full and in demand for all the new laws created to criminalise people since the end of the tory era. Tax dodgers etc, hardly a threat to society, but the law is keen to chuck them in the slammer whilst giving violent individuals community service, thus showing that if you piss the crown off, in you go, but crime against a person, well, they'll get over it, total lack of interest for the common man in the street.

The common man in the street, is the voter, voting has dropped, people are losing interest, what is set up to serve them supposedly is increasingly failing to do so. If you are a normal working, or indeed unemployed man in the street, things may happen, crime committed and largely it goes unreported because people think, just what is the point, criminals get off charges then come back to harrass the complainant and witnesses, terrorise.

Well, these are my thoughts, the law is ineffective, the punishment equaly ineffective, the police largely ineffective, if you don't have money,or status you are largely nothing in the eyes of the law, except cash cows to keep the powerful in power.

Those I was referring to as touchy feely ivory tower dwellers, are people who through a better standard of living, largely do not have to live in the towns and estates like the vast majority of the population, they have not a clue what the reality is, and probably don't want to know, because they know it all already, why, they advise the law makers.

I do not advocate a mob rule scenario, but what I would like is more attention to be paid to the people actually in the firing line, not the statisticians and theorists.

If you don't believe me, as to how things are in the UK with crime and all that, why not ask a victim of crime, as they have been through it all and there know.

Until you have experienced, you know nothing.




bamabbwsub -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:27:48 PM)

~FR~

quote:

I wondered why, if the teachers know enough about business that they can teach it, they are not all self employed tycoons. I was sure, that whatever degrees they could wave at me, I know more about business than any of them - having worked in and run my own business for many years. It would make sense to me, to have business lessons given by the likes of me rather than teachers who know the theory but not the practice.


LadyEllen, I usually whole-heartedly agree with Your posts, but I feel I must disagree with the quote above. You appear to be assuming that the teachers teaching business principles have never owned their own business and therefore, know nothing about it. However, many of my former college professors were once in the occupation that they taught, but quit that occupation, for various reasons -- not enough time with family, wanted to sell the business while it was making a profit so that they could retire, etc. I'm not saying that ALL teachers know a great deal about their subjects -- some don't -- but as a former teacher myself, I have to take some umbrage at the opinion that "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." In so many cases, it just isn't true.

And taking Your own logic, if the people who teach business should be self-employed tycoons, and You know more about business than they do...are You saying that You are a self-employed tycoon Yourself? Just being a Devil's Advocate to make my point -- no disrespect intended.

Edited to say, "Sorry...didn't mean to get off the original topic!" :)




LadyEllen -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:40:49 PM)

Not a tycoon yet Bama, but working on it! But your point is taken according to that particular excerpt of my post - although I posted that last paragraph not so much to deride teachers as to try to make a point about the crime and justice matter in relation to experts vs laity. In this instance of business teachers and the likes of me, I'm the laity (those who experience crime) and the teachers are the experts. Whilst I'm an expert in my field (ie I know all about the crime that happened to me) I'm not an expert in others but aware of them (ie crimes I never experienced) - with the point being that whilst it might seem a good idea to have the public involved in the system, the public dont have the knowledge and experience to see things in the big picture when it comes to crime and justice, and this is what is required for the system to work properly, in the same way that business teachers should not be experts in one field of industry but have a wide knowledge to engender learning according to the big picture.

I was hoping it might work as a metaphor for what was above that paragraph, but sometimes I'm too clever for my own or anyone else's good!

E




Aneirin -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:46:19 PM)

There is in the UK a difference between teachers at schools and lecturers at colleges. Those at colleges more often than not come from industry and teach what they know.

School teachers on the other hand may not have come from industry, but possess a qualification in their preferred study area, to enable them to teach that subject.

I am at college, I am taught Blacksmithing by a Blacksmith with his own business, Silversmithing by a Silversmith who sold her business and Glass blowing by a current practising glass artist.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:52:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Seeks as popeye stated, it's comparable to the U.S.  Of course that makes sense, since all states with the exception of Louisiana follow English common law.  The legal system is a club.  It's a club that you and I don't belong to.  The judges and lawyers play golf with each other in their offtime.  The higher ups in law enforcement play the system to make their lives easier.  They do not care about us.  They care about themselves, and they manipulate the law to suit their own ends.  Most of their objectives lay in sloth and greed.  They do not want to do any more work than they have to, but they want to get paid the same.  If you and I are unfortunate enough to find ourselves in a courtroom, we are merely visitors.  They view us a rubes, and they want to shuffle us through the system as fast as they can, while emptying our pockets as efficiently as possible.   

Mein Gott slaveboy this is getting embarrasing. You are so sensible I think I love you. Did I really say that lol
Quick give me a pill.




bamabbwsub -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 4:54:54 PM)

Point taken, LadyEllen, and I do understand the metaphor now, whereas my understanding was a little clouded by the knock on teachers and the educational system. I see so much of it, and I know so many really, really wonderful teachers, that I suppose I'm a bit hypersensitive to it. Not to mention that I was a pretty damn good teacher, myself. :)

Thank You for taking it in the spirit it was intended.

Again, sorry for the thread detour, Aneirin.




Termyn8or -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 5:41:09 PM)

And you wonder why some of us hve no respect for the "law". The law is corrupt and is basically bullshit.

Here is the law at Termy's Terminal, you fuck with me or rip me off, or get stupid, expect to get hurt. I never call the police. You agree to that when you walk in the door, if you don't agree, stay out.

I know all about the ivory tower crowd, like the ones for gun control. They firmly believe that the laws they pass for us do not apply to them. We are not allowed to protect ourselves, but they are. Not supposed to have guns ? Bring any gun to me I will buy it. I am not talking Weatherbys with gold inlays, I am talking regular guns. Killing tools, not collector's items.

Am I supposed to have them ? Yes. Anyone with a brain should have at least one gun. What does the law say ? I don't care. If this costs me my life, fine. But I am not giving anything up, I haven't hurt anyone in a long time, not less with a gun. Guns are a survival tool. Nobody has the right to take them away from people.

But did you ever notice that people who want to take people's guns away have security, possibly bodyguards, WITH  GUNS  ?

I don't just what universe everybody is in, but around two plus two equals four. The fact is that they only care about themselves, the rest of us be damnned.

English and Austrailian, when they took your guns you died. You let them be boss. This is not a D/s relationship, this is real life. When they come around here looking to take all the guns, they will find the bullets, that is for sure. In fact I'll be giving them the bullets, and that is what you should've done.

These people in think tanks cause more problems than they solve. Any suicide bombers listening at the moment ?

They can lead me when they put up their own sons for war, when they live under the same conditions they force upon the rest of us. Years ago a judge, around here somewhere, may have been NYC is quoted in a case where someone kept getting burglarized, I mean repeatedly. Know what the judge said ?

"You have to learn to adapt".

Their attitude is that we have to adapt to being burglartized, raped, robbed, beaten ? What the fuck else does that statement say ? Is that tyrant in a robe ready to adapt to this as well ? Fuck no.They go home to an ivory tower with sophisticated security systems and monitoring. They don't have to worry about it.

Meantime we go home and never know when someone is going to climb in the window and steal our meager belongings. But their jewelry is safe. Thank you ADT.

I have already made it pretty clear that if I woke up to being robbed someone gets hurt, probably killed. And remember I don't call the police. They are fucking useless to me. All my life they have never, not once, solved a crime that was perpetrated upon me, my family or chosen family. Ever.

If I don't kill an assailant, then I die. So what.

But they really have to lock some people up so they don't run across someone like me.

But then you can't trust them to lock up the right people.

See the depression thread for more information I guess.

T




thompsonx -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 6:44:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I think that liberalism has changed it so that the victim is now the criminal.    It isn't his fault he turned out this way, it is the fault of his environment or whatever type thing.   The true victum is at faut because he shouldn't have been there (just like international maritine law where if a ship runs aground it is the fault of the cargo because the ship wouldn't have been there if it weren't for the cargo sending him that way).  

KenDckey:
A false premise will always lead you to a false conclusion.
thompson
 








thompsonx -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 6:49:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I don't know that "liberal values" have destroyed much of anything. Just some of her foot-soldiers could do with a wake-up call, much like some of the dunderheads on the right could.


Level:
V ring six o'clock.
thompson
 








Owner59 -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 6:51:21 PM)

Still waiting for the conservatives to explain why this is so.Post #: 19
 
More suicides under Conservative rule


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2263690.stm#suicide




MissSCD -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 6:53:53 PM)

I will pass on this one.

Regards, MissSCD




thompsonx -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 7:02:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Seeks as popeye stated, it's comparable to the U.S.  Of course that makes sense, since all states with the exception of Louisiana follow English common law.  The legal system is a club.  It's a club that you and I don't belong to.  The judges and lawyers play golf with each other in their offtime.  The higher ups in law enforcement play the system to make their lives easier.  They do not care about us.  They care about themselves, and they manipulate the law to suit their own ends.  Most of their objectives lay in sloth and greed.  They do not want to do any more work than they have to, but they want to get paid the same.  If you and I are unfortunate enough to find ourselves in a courtroom, we are merely visitors.  They view us a rubes, and they want to shuffle us through the system as fast as they can, while emptying our pockets as efficiently as possible.   

slaveboyforyou:
I could not agree more.  Last month I was in traffic court.  In the space of three hours (180 minutes) the judge assessed just over $50,000 in fines.  Average time per rube 54 seconds.  This was for those who pled guilty with an explanation.  For those of us...well just me who pled not guilty...I got to come back for round two.
In the same three hour period the take was over $80,000 average time per rube...just over three minutes.  Lucky me the cop did not show up so I got off with a lecture about how lucky I was that the cop was busy protecting the citizens and how I should be ashamed of wasting the courts time.
thompson









Aneirin -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 7:13:10 PM)

I might not have a firearm should somebody be stupid enough to try and get into my place whilst I am there, but I do have a broadsword by my bed, and I know how to use it. Granted, no match for a gun, but at least it is something.Chance I get them before they get me, what a horrible way to go.

I hopes I never have to resort to that thing, as I also hope no one ever tries to get in, but it's there.


Oh, I once asked a copper about self defence, his answer was if I am attacked, call a policeman......just great!!!




RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 7:21:25 PM)

 

Aneurin, who do you think made the programme that inspired your "strong feelings"?  Who selected from a range of victims, primed them and told them which parts of their "story" to concentrate on?  Who read acres of print to find just the right experts to sit in front of them?

Who guaranteed that you have the leisure to watch The Big Question on the box and the eloquence to vent your spleen here?

An "elite of touchy feely ivory tower dwellers", that's who. 




RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 7:36:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

See this missing child just recovered in the UK. The mother has had 7 kids by 5 different men. Financed how ?


First of all, where is the proof that these seven children aren't provided for by their fathers?  And if they aren't what would you suggest instead?  Is it Victorian workhouses this week, or are you back to Nazi-style sterilisation? 

You know nothing about their lives but you see them with an utter contempt and lack of compassion.  So do not shrink from the same treatment when it's your turn.




Aneirin -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 7:59:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks



Aneurin, who do you think made the programme that inspired your "strong feelings"?  Who selected from a range of victims, primed them and told them which parts of their "story" to concentrate on?  Who read acres of print to find just the right experts to sit in front of them?

Who guaranteed that you have the leisure to watch The Big Question on the box and the eloquence to vent your spleen here?

An "elite of touchy feely ivory tower dwellers", that's who. 


And if as you say the very same people who are largely responsible for screwing up the system allowed me to view such a programme, why would they seek to do something that would direct the flak towards people of their own kind?

Or is it a case there are different types of touchy feelies who hold their hands up saying; 'It's not me guv' when fingers are pointed at them, a core of  people with PTFE lined shoulders  or even no shoulders as it would seem they are unable to bear the responsibility for their experiments.

Besides, I certainly do not need to watch such a programme to know something of what is happening in the country of my birth.




RealityLicks -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 6:22:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

And if as you say the very same people who are largely responsible for screwing up the system allowed me to view such a programme, why would they seek to do something that would direct the flak towards people of their own kind?


Because your entire perception of the problem is wrong.  You have swallowed whole the propaganda of the right, which seeks to demonise and scapegoat minorities.  Your simplistic analysis of the facts has left you without a rational argument; so you blame the facts.  The attitude of a spanked child won't cure the ills which you rail against.

quote:


Or is it a case there are different types of touchy feelies who hold their hands up saying; 'It's not me guv' when fingers are pointed at them, a core of  people with PTFE lined shoulders  or even no shoulders as it would seem they are unable to bear the responsibility for their experiments.

Besides, I certainly do not need to watch such a programme to know something of what is happening in the country of my birth.



Name-calling may make you feel better for a while but it seems to me that the country of your birth is quite beyond your comprehension.  Your OP reads like a knee-jerk reaction: predictable, spasmodic and pointless.




kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 6:24:54 AM)

Reality versus Theory:

Or RealityLicks versus TheorySucks.




LadyEllen -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/17/2008 8:14:45 AM)

You know Seeks - my first reaction to these sorts of situations is to decry the people involved, and its true that to some extent theyre taking unfair advantage of what the state (that is we the taxpayers) provides. Add in the factor that they all seem so damned common and unkempt, and the stage is set to provoke hostility against them personally.

But then I think about the kind of lives they have had - everything was neatly planned out for them, with a job in the nearest factory, a steady life if a humble one - and then everything changed and they were left out in the cold. No work, no hope and all the accompanying psychological problems, social problems and interpersonal problems that situation produces. At basic, the world they were brought up to take part in has gone, they have been left behind to make the best of a bad situation.

And that bad situation, whilst it in no way excuses any alleged manipulation of the social benefits system that might be apparent, it does account for the appearance of such to the likes of you and I. But on reflection we'd all do exactly the same in that situation, to get the best for us and for our children that was possible - however many fathers our children had because of the shaky life situation we find ourselves in and the difficulties of living in a community where depression and exclusion is the norm and inter personal relationships are strongly affected by those factors.

Dont blame people for trying to make the best of bad situation. Blame successive socio-economic policies which have produced this dire situation and the money men and politicians who quite frankly dont give a flying one about anyone - including you and I, should a profit be possible to turn from putting us in the exact same bad situation.

E




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